• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Time Magazine Article "Saddams Revenge"

joe1347

Critical Thinker
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
381
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1106254,00.html


. . . . But the Pentagon leadership is unlikely to support a strategy that concedes broad swaths of territory to the enemy. In fact, none of the intelligence officers who spoke with TIME or their ranking superiors could provide a plausible road map toward stability in Iraq. It is quite possible that the occupation of Iraq was an unwise proposition from the start, as many U.S. allies in the region warned before the invasion. Yet, despite their gloom, every one of the officers favors continuing—indeed, augmenting—the war effort. If the U.S. leaves, they say, the chaos in central Iraq could threaten the stability of the entire Middle East. . . .


>>> Comforting article from Time Magazine on Iraq. Certainly seems like we're now in a dammed if we do and dammed if we don't situation.
 
Yep pretty much. In fact there probably is a way of leaveing a vaguely stable Iraq. Split the sunni regon between the kurds and the shia and leave.
 
"Just put a nice president and thats it, a new country" yeah, right, as if the world was so easy. Disgustingly naive.
 
joe1347 said:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1106254,00.html

. . . . But the Pentagon leadership is unlikely to support a strategy that concedes broad swaths of territory to the enemy. In fact, none of the intelligence officers who spoke with TIME or their ranking superiors could provide a plausible road map toward stability in Iraq.

The key word here, of course, is "plausible". Who made that judgment of plausibility? The journalist, of course. But what are his criteria? How does he evaluate plausibility? Does he have a track record on evaluating such plans? We do not know. We have only his word.

I do not take journalists at their word alone, not anymore. They have not earned my trust, they have earned my mistrust.

It is quite possible that the occupation of Iraq was an unwise proposition from the start, as many U.S. allies in the region warned before the invasion.

Sure. It was also possible that our invasion could create a massive exodus of refugees from Iraq, as allies in the region warned. It's also possible that the conflict could spill out into a broader conflict, and even spark open war between Israel and its neighbors, for example. We were also warned about those things. It was also possible that these things would NOT happen.

And they did not happen. That's the possibility that actually came to pass.

It is quite possible that the occupation of Iraq was not an unwise proposition from the start.

Yet, despite their gloom, every one of the officers favors continuing—indeed, augmenting—the war effort.

Funny, but I often see journalists describe the military as being gloomy about Iraq. Yet when I listen to what the military people are ACTUALLY saying, it comes across entirely differently. Take, for example, this very interesting press event on Tal Afar:

http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050913-3901.html

Note, in particular, the last paragraph, the parting words from Col. McMaster to the press:

"And please, everybody, just please tell the American people how great their soldiers are. You've got to tell them. I mean, it is unbelievable what they're doing. I mean -- and I know I can't keep you any longer, but I just want to tell you, they're fighting. They're defeating the enemy. They are partnered with Iraqi security forces. They're building Iraqi security force capability. They're providing humanitarian assistance. They're organizing reconstruction right now. They are taking care of the people of the city as they're pursuing the enemy. I mean, it is extraordinary the quality of the young men and women who we have here pursuing the enemies of our nation and helping to secure the people of Tall Afar and western Ninevah. So you got to tell them."

I don't think the press is telling us.

Certainly seems like we're now in a dammed if we do and dammed if we don't situation.

We'll be damned by our critics if we do (stick it out), but I have no reason to think that we'll be damned by the actual events. I see no reason to think we cannot win. We're on a path to creating a self-sufficient, democratic Iraqi government. In the long run, that's really the victory condition. And at every single major milestone along that path, the terrorists have failed to stop our progress. They could not stop the handover of sovereignty. They could not stop the creation of an interim government. They could not stop elections. They have not stopped the drafting of a constitution. They will not stop the ratification of that constitution. There is, in short, nothing that they can do which actually prevents us from reaching our victory condition.

And yet, it is always OUR position, not the terrorists' position, which is portrayed as being hopeless. Sorry, but I really don't get it.
 
I have been speculating for awhile about the possibility that Bush is substantially unqualified to be president.

The bizarre WMD fiasco was enough to convince me that it was time to vote for anybody but Bush. But it wasn't enough to convince me that Bush was in fact a Bozo, I just thought there was enough evidence along that line to justify voting against him.

The Time article linked to in this thread is a brutal piece of evidence that this presidency didn't have a clue as to the problems of a war in Iraq or how to deal with them. How in the world is it possible that the Bush administration could have been so uniquely clueless on Iraq? Is it because the Bush administration is uniquely cluess on such a wide range of issues that Iraq was just one more item in the list?

I favored the war in Iraq because I thought the average US citizen was not in a position to know the details about the pros and cons of an Iraq invasion and that it was necessary to trust the Bush administration for this kind of decision. It is now clear that the Bush administration was either moronically stupid in its analysis of the factors involved in the decision to go to war or it was monumentally duplicitous. Whatever the case I am growing increasingly pessimistic about the ability of the administration to make good decisions concerning Iraq given the track record of this administration. Is it possible that the US and Iraq will limp along with daily violence and disaster for the next three years until Bush is replaced? Is there the slightest indication that the Bush administration can skillfully maneuver this situation into a peaceful and successful conclusion for at least some of the Iraqis?
 
davefoc said:
Is there the slightest indication that the Bush administration can skillfully maneuver this situation into a peaceful and successful conclusion for at least some of the Iraqis?

Actually, there's LOTS of evidence of that. Such as 8 million Iraqis voting, despite threats of death. That's more than some Iraqis, that's a whole damned lot of them.

Look, this isn't only up to Bush, and it's not only up to the US. In the end, this will be won or lost by Iraqis themselves. Contrary to the impression many people have, the fight is now primarily between the Iraqi people and the government they elected on one side, and a group of fascist, obscurantist terrorists on the other. We've certainly taken sides in this fight, as we should, but in the end it will not be our fight to win, it will be the Iraqi people's fight, and if they win, it will be their victory. At this point, our job is really to make sure that the government gets up to speed, so that it can really start enforcing the will of its electorate for itself. Is there the slightest indication that the terrorists can stop this from happening? No, there is not. So why, then, would you put your bets on the terrorists? This isn't a question about what the US screwed up, it's a question of whether or not you believe that 8 million voters can really be silenced again, now that they have found their voice. I don't think they can. Do you?
 
This is Time magazine. Should we be discussing an article from a magazine 2 notches above the National Enquirer? Maybe if this article was in the Economist (the Economist seems to be replacing Time/Newsweek/etc as the news magazine of record).

If we want to discuss articles from poor sources, why don't we let the dedicated right wingers on the board post more Washington Times stories or the leftie's post more DailyKOS.

(sorry, im at work, dont have time to read the article, so pulled a "high-horse" tactic instead, cheers)
 
In between the daily secret reports Kurilla has brought to his hospital room so he can track his battalion, the Commander watches television news, increasingly frustrated by what he sees as a clear, and inaccurate, negative bias. “When you get the news back here in the states, it’s all doom and body counts. I only wish the American public could see the incredible progress that is being made every day in Iraq, particularly in places like Mosul.”
From Michael Yon's blog.

September has seen major offensives in Anbar Province, and despite this US casualties are 1/3 what they were a year ago. And now when they take a city they leave behind a garrison large enough to old it. The terrorists are rapidly losing the support they once had in the Sunni areas, in fact it is Sunni tribes providing the intelligence that has enabled successful strikes at safe houses in al Qaim and Haditha. The commander of the terrorists in Mosul has been captured, he held his position only 12 days after the previous commander was killed. The terrorists have lost most of their skilled leadership, the ones replacing them are inexperienced and prone to mistakes. The terrorists are also getting younger, as the older ones are being killed off. There also seems to be a lack of volunteers to be suicide bombers, a Saudi was kidnapped and forced to become one, but he escaped his captors at the mosque he was supposed to bomb.
U.S. forces also announced Sunday that they believe a Saudi Arabian expatriate detained in a failed suicide bombing Friday of a Shiite mosque in Tuz Khormato was forced into the mission.
These are not positive signs for the terrorists, as their base of operations shrinks and their support dries up.

Funny none of this makes the 5:30 news...
 
corplinx said:
This is Time magazine. Should we be discussing an article from a magazine 2 notches above the National Enquirer? Maybe if this article was in the Economist (the Economist seems to be replacing Time/Newsweek/etc as the news magazine of record).

If we want to discuss articles from poor sources, why don't we let the dedicated right wingers on the board post more Washington Times stories or the leftie's post more DailyKOS.

(sorry, im at work, dont have time to read the article, so pulled a "high-horse" tactic instead, cheers)


>>> "Politicians won the war against the media with a simple rule: first, attack the messenger. The Modern era of American politicians subduing the media began in 1988 with the election of the first President Bush. He ran against the liberal-leaning base of the national media establishment and won." p. 15, Craig Crawford, "Attack the Messenger - How Politicians Turn you Against the Media". 2005

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. For those of us that lost family members in the later years of the Vietnam war - I sincerely hope that Iraq is not South Vietnam circa late 60's, when the US Military was convinced that all the we needed to "win" was yet more troups.
 
Interesting briefing on the latest ofensives in Iraq here. Doesn't really jibe w/ Time's assessment...
 
WildCat said:
Interesting briefing on the latest ofensives in Iraq here. Doesn't really jibe w/ Time's assessment...


I guess "fantastic" is the new DoD buzzword (used 11 times in the short briefing). I'm sorry, but the first image that popped into my head while reading the DoD article was from one of those idiotic shopping channel shows (e.g., Adrienne on HSN), where the host constantly shouts "fantastic" to describe their schlock.
 
joe1347 said:
I guess "fantastic" is the new DoD buzzword (used 11 times in the short briefing). I'm sorry, but the first image that popped into my head while reading the DoD article was from one of those idiotic shopping channel shows (e.g., Adrienne on HSN), where the host constantly shouts "fantastic" to describe their schlock.
Do you have any comments on the article, or do you prefer to nitpick about word choice?
 
WildCat said:
Do you have any comments on the article, or do you prefer to nitpick about word choice?

Actually the word choice is fairly telling. I'm assuming that the DoD is having to carefully craft their press briefings/releases now that the Arab media pays such close attention. It's interesting how previous threatening sounding military phases - such as "lethal" - used to describe weapons systems have been replaced by the more friendly "fantastic".

As for the briefing - I hope that the reported progress isn't just localized. I really don't know what to think and I definitely do not trust the administration to tell us the truth. However, what I hear through whatever ever source certainly doesn't matter - but, what does matter is whether the decision makers in the administration are being told the real story or are they (the decision makers) surrounded by toadies. I wish Colin Powell was still around.
 
"We've taken Samarra four times, and we've lost it four times," says an intelligence officer.
Time
The Samarra Health Clinic and Hospital will receive new equipment to replace that which was damaged or looted during the war.
In Samarra, troops disbursed $10,025 for the refurbishment of the local water treatment facility.
1) Fox News, July 24, 2003
GIs Conduct Door-to-Door Raids in Samarra ... U.S. troops smashed down workshop doors and junkyard gates with sledgehammers, crowbars, explosives and even armored vehicles in a massive raid to hunt for pro-Saddam Hussein (search) militants and stamp out the increasingly bold anti-U.S. resistance.
2) Fox News, December 17, 2003
Using a different strategy, American and Iraqi forces entered the central city of Samarra for the first time in months under an agreement with local leaders to restore central government control peacefully.
3) Fox News, September 09, 2004
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld (search) said Monday he does not expect a civil war to erupt in Iraq, and pointed to the formerly insurgent-held city of Samarra (search) as an example of success.
"I don't think it's going to happen," Rumsfeld said in New York at the Council on Foreign Relations, when asked about the threat of civil war. "But what has to be done in that country is what basically was done in Samarra over the last 48 hours."
4) Fox News, October 04, 2004
 
Wildcat, I read the article you linked to. It is very consistent with the tone of the stories that I have been told by returning soldiers that I have talked to.

My only comment as someone who is interested in the truth of what is going on is that this is the kind of thing that soldiers say. They say these kind of things when the war is being won and they say these kind of things when the war is being lost. More information and probably more skill is required to sort out an objective view of what is actually going on than most of us possess. We therefore look to our national leaders for some sort of skilled appraisal of the actual situation. I don't think it is reasonable to expect perfect truth from our leaders. Leaders particularly in a time of war lie and misrepresent for various purposes including just plain self aggrandizement.

Nonetheless, our national leaders are probably the only people with access to sufficient information and with access to the skilled analysts to make informed decisions. My problem is the missteps and lies of the Bush administration so far seem so large that I am pessimistic about the possibility of a positive outcome for the Iraq war.
 
davefoc said:
Wildcat, I read the article you linked to. It is very consistent with the tone of the stories that I have been told by returning soldiers that I have talked to.

My only comment as someone who is interested in the truth of what is going on is that this is the kind of thing that soldiers say. They say these kind of things when the war is being won and they say these kind of things when the war is being lost. More information and probably more skill is required to sort out an objective view of what is actually going on than most of us possess. We therefore look to our national leaders for some sort of skilled appraisal of the actual situation. I don't think it is reasonable to expect perfect truth from our leaders. Leaders particularly in a time of war lie and misrepresent for various purposes including just plain self aggrandizement.

Nonetheless, our national leaders are probably the only people with access to sufficient information and with access to the skilled analysts to make informed decisions. My problem is the missteps and lies of the Bush administration so far seem so large that I am pessimistic about the possibility of a positive outcome for the Iraq war.
It would be nice if if more "reporters" would get their useless butts off of the bar stool in the Green Zone and actually go out and report, rather than passing on press briefings and body counts.

Have you read any of Michael Yon's blog?
 
joe1347 said:
I wish Colin Powell was still around.

I'm not so sure. at a time when the country desperately needed a man to stand up with an independent view, Powell chose to be the toady.

I agree that this administration is not trustworthy with regards to providing objective views of the situation or with regards to candid discussions of past mistakes but I doubt that Powell would make that situation better.

I was a fan of Powell but in the end he may have only served as an enabler for this administration. For some of us who were skeptical of Rumsfeld and Bush and their apparent romantic notions of war, Powell was the person we trusted. In the end, Powell was either taken in or just failed to have sufficient willingness to take an independent stance to be of benefit.
 

Back
Top Bottom