Three more beheadings in Iraq

[Mycroft]

A videotape posted on an Islamic militant website shows the apparent beheading of three Iraqi members of a Kurdish party in the country's north who were said to be cooperating with American forces.

A statement accompanying the tape was signed in the name of "Ansar al-Sunna Army". Its authenticity, or that of the tape, could not be verified.

The statement said the three truck drivers were members of the Kurdistan Democratic Party who had been captured at a roadblock set up by the group's members near Taji, about 25km north of Baghdad.

The "renegade military men, affiliated with the traitor Kurdistan Democratic Party", were beheaded after being interrogated and their bodies were left on the road to Mosul "for them to be an example to others, and for us to revenge our women, children and elderly who die daily from American raids".

The video, posted on a site known for its Islamic militant content, shows three young men showing their identity cards. Seconds later, each has his throat slit. The man slaughtering them continues until each has been decapitated and his head placed on the back of his body.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/20/1095532205543.html

The following cartoon sums up the situation nicely.

 

[demon]

Brother of British hostage in Iraq lambasts Blair's handling of crisis

BRIGHTON, England (AFP) - The brother of Kenneth Bigley, the British hostage held in Iraq (news - web sites), says he has received information that he is still alive, and lashed out at the low-key way in which Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) is dealing with the situation as "the kiss of death".

"I have received information this evening that Ken is alive," Paul Bigley told an anti-war meeting on the fringes of the annual conference of Blair's governing Labour Party in Brighton, southern England.

"Help me keep him alive," he said, speaking by audio link from the Netherlands where he lives and works.

He was scathing in his criticism of the prime minister, however, saying: "Mr. Blair's silence for the past 10 days is a kiss of death to my brother. Mr Blair, you're doing it the wrong way."

The comments followed a statement a few hours earlier by the director of London's Islamic Observatory which also said the 62-year-old Liverpool native was still alive.

"We have learned, through an Iraqi envoy who told Tawhid wal Jihad (Unity and Holy War) about our appeal, that Kenneth Bigley is still alive," Yasser al-Serri told AFP, referring to a plea he issued last week for his release.

Tawhid wal Jihad War is the name of the group holding Bigley. It is headed by alleged Al-Qaeda leader in Iraq, Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi.

Britain's Foreign Office said earlier that it could not confirm reports that Bigley -- abducted in Baghdad 10 days ago along with two American colleagues who have since been executed -- was still alive.

Two envoys from Britain's leading Muslim organisation arrived in Iraq Saturday to try to secure the release of Bigley, who was in Baghdad for a civilian contractor.

Daoud Abdullah and Musharraf Hussain, from the Muslim Council of Britain, met Sunday with Iraq's president Ghazi al-Yawar, and planned to meet other Iraqi religious and community figures in hopes of contacting the captors.

Earlier Sunday, in a BBC television interview, Blair insisted that everything was being done to help resolve Bigley's ordeal, but he warned against raising false hopes.

"My first reaction is the reaction of anyone, which is real sympathy for him, anger at how he is being held by those people and an earnest hope that, despite all the difficulties, we can do something," Blair said.

But, speaking on BBC television, he added: "There is no point in raising false hopes because of the nature of the people we're dealing with. We're doing everything we properly and legitimately can."

A spokesman for Blair said late Sunday that the prime minister had spoken by telephone with the Bigley family during the day -- the third time he has done so within a week.

Bigley's family, from his frail 86-year-old mother to his two brothers to his Thai wife, have issued a series of emotional televised appeals to his captors, in contrast to Blair's low-key approach.

If the crisis takes a turn for the worse this week, political analysts say it could impact badly on Blair, just as he is trying to rally his Labour Party ahead of an expected general election next year.

Paul Bigley did not hide his frustration with Blair's refusal to directly intervene, saying Sunday: "All I am asking is for communication. Just simply send a bloody fax pleading for my brother's life."


Bigley has not been seen since he appeared in a fuzzy video posted on the Internet last Wednesday -- after his two colleagues were beheaded -- in which he begged Blair to intervene to save his life.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1538&ncid=732&e=2&u=/a

 

[Mycroft]

Brother of British hostage in Iraq lambasts Blair's handling of crisis

The terrorists are certainly getting maximum mileage out of their crimes.

 

[Kopji]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the Big Plan is. All angles seem equally senseless.

The beheadings lend evidence that we are hunting down dangerous animals: the occasional human rights violation or collateral Iraqi death is seen as unfortunate but acceptable.

So on the surface we might welcome such a 'favor'. We say they are animals not people, and so they oblige by validating our beliefs.

Adding complexity though, we find out that tapes of the beheadings are popular items at the local Baghdad market.
"Hey mom- pick up some milk, bread, and a tape of the latest beheadings while you're at the store". linky

It must really annoy them when after all this effort, Bush goes on TV and says things are looking up in Iraq. Their message is obviously not getting through, even with a compelling sales hockey stick curve for anti-American collectibles.

So what the hell we are doing there?

Ah I see... Our troops are serving as a lightning rod to attract terrorists so they will not harm us elsewhere. If we don't kill them there they will be free to come after us here.

But the reason the terrorists want to kill us is because we are there. All very clear now.

 

[Mycroft]

So on the surface we might welcome such a 'favor'. We say they are animals not people, and so they oblige by validating our beliefs.

Exactly who says that? Even Jeffery Dahmer was a human being.

 

[Kopji]

Sorry, being sarcastic. Does not translate well.

This particular terrorist has a successful formula for gaining media attention and projecting an aura of power. There is no real hope of gaining any concessions from the US government by kidnapping civilians.

We react by bombing things, which makes it look like we fear him. Sort of a win-win for him isn't it. As we react with violence Iraq appears more chaotic and violent. This suits their goals just fine. Especially since the guy is still running around free.

 

[Kopji]

Not sarcastic though:
We do not treat terrorists as if they were human beings. Is that a point of debate?

 

[Jim Bowen]

On the news last night it was suggested that the people who are holding Bigley are quite politically attuned and that they may kill him during the Labour Party conference this coming week, possibly just before Blair makes his speach. If so, it would probably shove Iraq to the top of the conference agenda and would certainly have a bigger impact than if they did it before or after.

 

[Mycroft]

Not sarcastic though:
We do not treat terrorists as if they were human beings. Is that a point of debate?

Which terrorists do you feel were not treated as human beings?

 

[Tmy]

Why are they given Blair so much grief?? You dont want to be killed heres what you do...........DONT TAKE THAT JOB IN IRAQ!!! We're talking contractors here. Im sure they are getting hazard pay to run off to the mid east. Its a gamble, high pay vs danger.

No one desevers to be beheaded like that, and I feel for the guys. But dont blame it all on Blair. I thinks it common knowlege that if you are kidnapped by terrorists, the govt wont give into their crazy demands to win your freedom.

 

[Tony]

We (US, Europe and Asia) should just conquer the Mid East, civilian casualties be damned. The a**hole of the world needs a lot of wiping.

 

[TragicMonkey]

We (US, Europe and Asia) should just conquer the Mid East, civilian casualties be damned. The a**hole of the world needs a lot of wiping.

But then we'd be stuck with the place. Having Iraq is a big pain, why on earth would we want all its neighbors as well?

 

[Tony]

But then we'd be stuck with the place. Having Iraq is a big pain, why on earth would we want all its neighbors as well?

Well, it would be hard to form resistance when 3/4 of them are dead (I see no problem in sending allah lovers to allah) don't you think?

In such a scenario, we could de-islamify the place and divide up the land between the participating parties.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Well, it would be hard to form resistance when 3/4 of them are dead, don't you think?

In such a scenario, we could de-islamify the place and divide up the land between the participating parties.

It would make the remaining 1/4 really, really hate us. Even more than now. And teach their hate to the next generation.

De-religioning doesn't enjoy a good success rate--look at how far back Russia has swung since the fall of the Soviets. Suppressing religions just drives them underground, and convinces the young people that religion is cool and interesting.

And as for dividing the place up, there are already too many different ethic groups with conflicting claims in the area. However you do it, you're going to add more injury and increase problems.

I think the opposite should be done--unification of the entire Middle East into a single secular state with multiple religions and ethnicities, with legal guarantees against possible tyranny by the majority religion/ethnicity. The best way to de-religionize is to simply ignore religion entirely, and bring in the best that secular society can offer by way of technology, peace, and culture. Even crass materialism is good for that, having a cleansing effect on mysticism-prone peoples. "Yeah, God is ineffable...but the neighbors have Playstation!"

Basically, we really do have to turn them into us, or at least create conditions where they'll naturally evolve into something similar.

 

[Megalodon]

Well, it would be hard to form resistance when 3/4 of them are dead (I see no problem in sending allah lovers to allah) don't you think?

You see no problem? That tell a lot about you... I guess the right to life, freedom and the pursuit of happiness is only for the cowboys, right, Tony boy?

In such a scenario, we could de-islamify the place and divide up the land between the participating parties.

Of course... Don't let bedwetting PC words as "colonialism" and "genocide" get in the way... Just kill them all! That will show them you're more civilized.

You are the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ of the world, Tony. And you and your ilk would do us all a favour if you wiped yourselves out.

 

[Tony]

You see no problem? That tell a lot about you... I guess the right to life, freedom and the pursuit of happiness is only for the cowboys, right, Tony boy?

Nope, but there's only so much of a culture that glorifies murder, tyranny, religious persecution, intolerance and just plain hate that I'm willing to tolerate.

Of course... Don't let bedwetting PC words as "colonialism" and "genocide" get in the way... Just kill them all! That will show them you're more civilized.

I'm not interested in showing them I'm more civilized. Why should I? They aren't interested in civilization. They are only concerned with the dominance of their given religious sect.

You are the a**hole of the world, Tony. And you and your ilk would do us all a favour if you wiped yourselves out.

LMAO

All your sanctimonious bulls**t and you turn around and advocate the exact same thing as me. You've just shown that, not only do you understand my position, you are exactly the same (except for you, advocating death of whitey is ok, but for anyone else it's not)

 

[Megalodon]

I think the opposite should be done--unification of the entire Middle East into a single secular state with multiple religions and ethnicities, with legal guarantees against possible tyranny by the majority religion/ethnicity.

And who would do that? Who would decide who their leader should be? The US? The EU? The UN?

Why don't we cut the bullsh*t! The cause of the instability in the Middle East is the West. Due to our dependence on fossil fuel, we f*ck around with their regimes, proping up dictators where and when it suits us.

You want to pacify the region? Go for alternate energies, and cut the oil imports to a dribble. Without money to spend in the military, their govs would be much more cautious on whom they would take on.

The best way to de-religionize is to simply ignore religion entirely, and bring in the best that secular society can offer by way of technology, peace, and culture. Even crass materialism is good for that, having a cleansing effect on mysticism-prone peoples. "Yeah, God is ineffable...but the neighbors have Playstation!"

I agree. And I believe that, if we stop interfering with the Middle East, the religious leaders will have no believable outside threat to point at, so as to gather supporters. Then things could go as you describe.

Fear was always the best ally of religion.

 

[Tony]

I think the opposite should be done--unification of the entire Middle East into a single secular state with multiple religions and ethnicities, with legal guarantees against possible tyranny by the majority religion/ethnicity. The best way to de-religionize is to simply ignore religion entirely, and bring in the best that secular society can offer by way of technology, peace, and culture. Even crass materialism is good for that, having a cleansing effect on mysticism-prone peoples. "Yeah, God is ineffable...but the neighbors have Playstation!"

Basically, we really do have to turn them into us, or at least create conditions where they'll naturally evolve into something similar.

I agree, but how likely do you think such a scenario is? I’m a bit more pessimistic. Do you really think these people will ultimately choose peace, prosperity and modernity over Islam? History says otherwise, but I guess there’s always hope.

 

[Megalodon]

Nope, but there's only so much of a culture that glorifies murder, tyranny, religious persecution, intolerance and just plain hate that I'm willing to tolerate.

Yeah... Advocating the murder of 3/4 of the Islamic world is a banner of liberty and democracy

All your sanctimonious bulls**t and you turn around and advocate the exact same thing as me. You've just shown that, not only do you understand my position, you are exactly the same (except for you, advocating death of whitey is ok, but for anyone else it's not)

No Tony boy... I thought a hard-core libertarian like you would know the difference between having the choice of offing one self and being murdered...

And besides, I didn't mention withey. Morons like you come in all colors, genders and creeds... and that is the root of the problem.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Why don't we cut the bullsh*t! The cause of the instability in the Middle East is the West. Due to our dependence on fossil fuel, we f*ck around with their regimes, proping up dictators where and when it suits us.

I wasn't discussing causes, but suggesting a possible solution. There are multiple reasons for the instability in the Middle East. Assigning blame at this point is pointless---aside from the fact that if it is indeed the fault of the West, than the West is obligated to fix it.

You want to pacify the region? Go for alternate energies, and cut the oil imports to a dribble. Without money to spend in the military, their govs would be much more cautious on whom they would take on.

Actually, I see it happening the other way. If we manage to cut the need for oil too much, it will precipitate the economic collapse of several countries and the rich men who rule them. They may prefer the prospect of world-wide holy war to that, out of desperation.

I agree. And I believe that, if we stop interfering with the Middle East, the religious leaders will have no believable outside threat to point at, so as to gather supporters. Then things could go as you describe.

Fear was always the best ally of religion.

Unfortunately, things seem to be getting more religious, not more secular. Or at least the very religious are more successful at pushing their agenda than the secularists. The Taleban had Afghanistan for years before we finally had a reason to topple them. Non-interference doesn't work in every situation.