Thoughts on the #messagetofeminists thing?

pharphis

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This thing was started a few days ago and it's somewhat interesting. Well, some of it is predictable of course but some of it is more than simple anti-feminist talking points.

Here is the twitter link (I think - I don't personally use twitter) and here is one of the youtube examples by noelplum99 (only the first 2 mins are necessary)

Does anyone know of a feminist response? Any self-identified feminists who contributed?
 
You're almost walking into the fire, pharphis. I hope you've got a flame-resistant suit. :D
 
Well I think the most accurate definition of feminist (reflective of feminists in reality not just a dictionary) is someone interested in advocacy for women's issues. This doesn't necessarily mean they are anti-men or anything like that though it often does translate to this.

Feminists also seem to accept a variety of presuppositions in their world-view such as one or more of the following: patriarchy, rape culture, wage-gap... Of course, definitions for these things are varied but I'm also not really sure why you're asking me. I didn't start the hashtag, I just noticed that some youtubers were following along and was wondering what thoughts were going around here and elsewhere.

To some extent, it doesn't even matter WHAT feminism is as long as it has a huge number of people self-identifying as one,as Harmful Opinions noted in his video
 
Thoughts on the #messagetofeminists thing?

Mind-numbingly uninteresting.

I hear there's a chain letter going around about something too. :boggled:
 
pharphis said:
Well I think the most accurate definition of feminist (reflective of feminists in reality not just a dictionary) is someone interested in advocacy for women's issues. This doesn't necessarily mean they are anti-men or anything like that though it often does translate to this.

Feminists also seem to accept a variety of presuppositions in their world-view such as one or more of the following: patriarchy, rape culture, wage-gap... Of course, definitions for these things are varied but I'm also not really sure why you're asking me. I didn't start the hashtag, I just noticed that some youtubers were following along and was wondering what thoughts were going around here and elsewhere.

To some extent, it doesn't even matter WHAT feminism is as long as it has a huge number of people self-identifying as one,as Harmful Opinions noted in his video
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Because you asked for "feminists" to provide their views on it to you, and I had no way to know if I qualified.
 
RogueKitten said:
How do you define feminist? That's a pretty broad range of people.
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Well, there's quite a few who identify as such, and while they often trot out the dictionary definition, they often will simultaneously advocate for public policies or make claims that would appear to run contrary to said dictionary definition. Or they'll use the dictionary definition in a 'No True Scotsman' manner to disavow other self-identified feminists who do hold more radical or strident views.

I guess what I'm saying is to judge them based on actual statements, actions taken, and policies supported, rather than dictionary or other definition.
 
Corsair 115 said:
Well, there's quite a few who identify as such, and while they often trot out the dictionary definition, they often will simultaneously advocate for public policies or make claims that would appear to run contrary to said dictionary definition. Or they'll use the dictionary definition in a 'No True Scotsman' manner to disavow other self-identified feminists who do hold more radical or strident views.

I guess what I'm saying is to judge them based on actual statements, actions taken, and policies supported, rather than dictionary or other definition.
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Then I have no idea if I can help you loll
 
RogueKitten said:
Then I have no idea if I can help you loll
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Yeah, I know. Too general comment is generally useless. ;) Let me try again.


RogueKitten said:
Because you asked for "feminists" to provide their views on it to you, and I had no way to know if I qualified.
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Upon further reflection, to answer your question more usefully, from the few videos I've seen, which, I believe. are attached to the matter mentioned in the OP, while the general term 'feminist' is used, what they are really referring to are the third wave, intersectional feminists. Those are the ones who seem to be steering the ship of feminism at present, and who seem to wield a considerable degree of influence in terms of public policy, academia, and in at least some media outlets.
 
RogueKitten said:
How do you define feminist? That's a pretty broad range of people.
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Which is basically what makes all social level discussions about almost everything train wrecks these days, anyone can join, slap any label they want to both themselves and others, and without fail it almost always immediately degrades into bickering about categorization and various levels of "One True Scotsman" against overly broadly lumping everyone together.

Am I a feminist? I guess. I mean all the textbook definitions and tenets of feminism (that is the basic idea that women should be treated equal to men) are a no brainer to me. If you're still stuck at the "barefoot and pregnant property of the husband" level of thought I probably aren't going to see eye to eye with you anytime real soon.

But like many, perhaps most, ideas feminism despite being a broad collection of ideas does tend to coalesce into "movement" which start to develop it's own... personality I guess you'd call it for lack of a better term. And feet to the fire has "feminism" the movement always picked the best hills to die on, rhetoric and languages to use, and methodologies? No.

My agreement with feminism the intellectual concept does not obligate me to agree with every social movement that applies that same level to itself.

But I do think the boogeyman of the "Feminist" is way overblown. Yeah I've done my share at eyerolls at some of the Tumblr nonsense and news articles where some ditz claims that killing women in a video game should be considered rape or whatever but... honestly I never meet people like that in real life so I'm tempted to just dismiss them as trolls and Poes at worst, people who are so disconnected from reality they can't operate in it at best. The hard core really crazy stuff doesn't seem to leak over into the real world all that often so while I do feel that opinions professed in an anonymous environment do have sometimes have a certain value in looking at the underlying mentalities of certain opinions and movement, I have hard time really taking the super-seriously.

Where does that leave me? *Shrugs* Hell if I know. Pro-feminist ally or neck-bearded MRA or somewhere in between I guess.
 
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RogueKitten said:
Because you asked for "feminists" to provide their views on it to you, and I had no way to know if I qualified.
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Now that I've given my definition, do you fall within it? Even if you don't, you're free to share your thoughts.
Shadowdweller said:
Mr. Plum's video was surprisingly articulate and intellectually valid at the very least.
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Noelplum is one of the more articulate people in the youtube community of atheists/skeptics/non-feminists. A lot of people claim he is a "fence-sitter" or too neutral on topics but I don't think that is true at all. I think he is simply more charitable than most when interpreting his "opponent's" (for lack of a better word) message.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
They can't get to the point, I don't have time to listen.
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Well, like many of these things that are "challenges" they have rules that go with them. So, people tend to explain the rules and purpose and then give their statement. The thought provided in noelplum's video is around 1.5 mins iirc.

Of course, you're free to browse the twitter *shrug*
 
I highly, sincerely, exasperatedly doubt anyone other than their anti-feminist peers will be viewing these messages.
 
A hashtag is a rather amorphous thing to respond to. I read the first several tweets in the OP link and was kind of underwhelmed. If you picked out certain tweets to respond to I could, but it just appears to be a grab-bag of anti-feminist statements or links to youtube videos or other sites, but I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

There are certainly strains of feminist thought that should be subjected to critical analysis, as well as anti-feminism, but I don't identify with either tribe, although I am broadly in favor of women's rights.

ETA: I will say this much: I am rather suspicious of people who just lump all feminism together and cherry pick the most extreme or easy to mock examples as reasons to dismiss feminism altogether. I mean, sure: Andrea Dworkin, that chick was cray-cray, but just because she exists and said some stuff that is easy to mock doesn't mean that all feminists agree with her extreme ideology.
 
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In it's simplest form, Feminism is this....

All people are humans and as such should be treated equally as humans, without regard to their gender.
 
PhantomWolf said:
In it's simplest form, Feminism is this....

All people are humans and as such should be treated equally as humans, without regard to their gender.
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That gets repeated a lot, but there are many instances of feminists who don't want or even advocate for equality.

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly

or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Miller_Gearhart

People like that, by your definition, could not be feminist, yet that is how they are widely regarded. Thus, feminism must mean something else. IMO, feminism is simply female identity politics. There is no underlying philosophy that encompasses all of feminism.
 
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