They burn witches, don't they?

[Roadtoad]

Just when you thought this sort of thing ended among America's sillier early emigrants in Salem, MA, you read about this.

All I can say is I'm thankful someone was able to help this child in time.

From the BBC:

An eight-year-old girl was tortured and about to be killed after being accused of being a witch, the Old Bailey heard.
The court was told the Angolan girl was put in a bag and was to be thrown into a river before the attack was stopped.

The child's aunt, 38, and Sita Kisanga, 35, both from London, deny conspiracy to murder and several counts of child cruelty dating from November 2003.

Sebastian Pinto, 33, and Kiwonde Kiese, 21, both of Stoke Newington, deny aiding and abetting child cruelty.

Slapped and cut

Charges against the four defendants allege that chilli peppers were rubbed into the girl's eyes, she was beaten with a belt, slapped, cut with a knife and starved.

Prosecutor Patricia May said the victim, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was brought to Britain from Angola in 2002 by one of the defendants, who claimed she was her daughter.

The girl's father had died in the fighting in the African country's civil war and her mother was also feared dead.

Miss May said the victim and her aunt went to live with Ms Kisanga at the beginning of 2003, when her ill-treatment started after another child told them she had performed witchcraft.

This child was treated as a scapegoat by family members, tormented, subjected to all sorts of assaults

Miss May added: "That ill-treatment led to conduct which would, if it had not been stopped, led to fatal consequences."

She told the court the aunt and Ms Kisanga put the girl in a laundry bag, zipped it up and were about to throw it into the New River in Hackney, east London, until Mr Pinto stopped them.

Miss May said Mr Pinto told them: "If they did and it was discovered, the law and the rights of children in this country being what they were, they would go to prison."

Ms Kisanga's home was searched and a number of documents were found relating to sin, the devil and witchcraft.

Diary evidence

Miss May said her diary, written in the African language of Lingala, was also examined.

She told the court: "One entry for 16 November 2003 stated, 'There was indeed a prophesy she has ndoki [the Lingala word for witchcraft]'."

Miss May said a handwriting analysis had suggested there was strong evidence that the words were written by Ms Kisanga.

Miss May added: "This child was treated as a scapegoat by family members, tormented, subjected to all sorts of assaults which must have caused her considerable pain, fear and distress.

"All the defendants to a greater or lesser degree, participated in that conduct."

 

[clarsct]

Already a thread on this in the Paranormal section by EGarret:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56998

But yes, it's...well.....I 'm not sure I have words....(especially with rule 8 around)

 

[c4ts]

Words cannot express the craziness of the whole situation, so I'm not even going to bother.

 

[stamenflicker]

It's sad that the torture of a single child due to some whacked out misguided religious souls can draw such emotion and attention from the anti-theist community when 20 million Stalin starved Russians, 5 million butchered Cambodians, and 2 million tortured Sudanese Christians doesn't serve as evidence for anything....

Let's all just face it: the human race is both borked and blessed and neither religion nor science nor politics or public policy can safely rest in the camp of "The Good." Why? Cause people (in general) are borked, and no amount of education, re-education, de-education, or a-education is ever going to change that.

Flick

 

[FireGarden]

Well Flick,
Perhaps the reason for the sorrow is the one that Einstein alluded to. Something along the lines that humanity would be in a sad state if we based our morality on the fear of punishment.

I'm more inclined towards the "If we believe absurdities, then we will commit atrocities"

There are many absurdities that are not religion. For instance, on the subject of starving Russians, have you heard of Lysenko?

Maybe I'm more optimistic than you. But I reckon that the better informed humanity becomes, then the less "borked" we are.


BTW,
Sorry for the harsh welcome back. It IS nice to hear from you again. (Assuming you're the same Flick, of course )

 

[P.S.A.]

Ahhh yes, the joys of conventional wisdom; seeming to contain so much overall truth, and yet when examined closely, to get all of the specifics which build up to that truth so completely wrong...

attention from the anti-theist community when 20 million Stalin starved Russians

Gosh, one could almost forget that Stalin's own atheism was rather mutable when it suited him. Indeed, a quick look at any history of the Orthodox Faith during the revolutionary period finds such quotes such as these...

"World War II. To arouse support for the "Great Patriotic War," Stalin relaxed restrictions on Russian Orthodoxy. To build national morale, instill patriotism, and integrate territories acquired before and during the war, Stalin reopened churches and ended the "Renovated" schism. Sergius was elected patriarch in 1943. His successor, Patriarch Alexis who served from 1945-1970, opened some 25,000 churches. "

http://wrc.lingnet.org/russorth.htm

5 million butchered Cambodians

The Khmer Rouge? Definately evil I agree... in fact it was William Shawcross' book "Sideshow" which really enthused me towards politics all those years ago. One slight problem; your figures are completely wrong... the total population of Cambodia at the time was only around 7 million: The highest estimates for deaths, when the tragedy was still occuring, was a possible 3 million. Time and access to the country for research now states this though;

"Intellectuals and skilled workers were assassinated, and a total of perhaps as many as 1.5 million died, inclusive of starvation and forced marches."

http://www.answers.com/topic/khmer-rouge

Still a hefty whack of the poulation (just under 1 in 4), but nowhere near as large as your figure. And do you know what put a stop to this appalling Communist butchery?

Have a guess...

Why it was invasion by Communist North Vietnam, who proceeded to slowly bring the country back from the abyss. The UN trials of Khmer Rouge murderers we thus owe to Communism too.

All of which made me inclined, I hope you'll understand, to check your figures with regards to the Sudan... which according to the CIA factbook reveals that if your figures are correct, every single Christian in Sudan is currently being tortured, by those evil... Muslims, apparently. It's a Muslim rather than Communist dictatorship.

So... what does the evidence tell us, I wonder? That when we look at your examples, we get a lot of very different issues at play, and it's not so easy to generalise a single cause, wouldn't you you say?

However... in this ONE case about which this thread is dedicated, A SINGLE person can CLEARLY BE SEEN to have committed a crime FOR LARGELY RELIGIOUS REASONS. Which is why it's in RELIGION AND PHILOSOPHY. If you want to have an argument about how you can draw conclusions about the ill effects of communism/atheism, you want the POLITICS board; you'll find all kinds of jolly righties arguing that over there. Often with the same misunderstood or plainly wrong facts too. I actually agree with you that the human race is borked. I might even agree with you that there is a common factor in the differing responses; As Stalin himself once said...

"The death of one is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic"

It's nothing to do with ignoring the atheistic justification of some crimes, or focusing on the religious nature of others, and simply that the small personal experience is always more potent to the individual than the masses experience. Except I also know Stalin likely as not never actually said those words; It's just another piece of conventional wisdom again... Superficially true, because that is how people think, and it does indeed sound like the sort of thing we'd expect Stalin to say... but the evidence that he ever did say it doesn't stand up to examination.

 

[Mephisto]

Sometimes they just beat and degrade them

Just when you thought this sort of thing ended among America's sillier early emigrants in Salem, MA, you read about this.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing has been going on for some time in civilized America. Everyone, from Atheists, to the Vatican to Evangelicals have addressed the problem (each in their own way and for their own benefit)

http://courttv.com/trials/exorcist/070904_verdict_ctv.html

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/devil3.htm

http://www.christiantoday.com/news/...e.in.exorcisms.among.african.churches/396.htm

Mephisto

 

[Roadtoad]

Re: Sometimes they just beat and degrade them

Unfortunately, this sort of thing has been going on for some time in civilized America. Everyone, from Atheists, to the Vatican to Evangelicals have addressed the problem (each in their own way and for their own benefit)

http://courttv.com/trials/exorcist/070904_verdict_ctv.html

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/devil3.htm

http://www.christiantoday.com/news/...e.in.exorcisms.among.african.churches/396.htm

Mephisto

I'm without words...

 

[Skeptical Greg]

With no comment regarding the horror of this, I couldn't help but notice..

Prosecutor Patricia May said the victim, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was brought to Britain from Angola in 2002 by one of the defendants, who claimed she was her daughter.

I'm sure no one figured out the victim's name after all the other principles were named..

 

[neutrino_cannon]

It's sad that the torture of a single child due to some whacked out misguided religious souls can draw such emotion and attention from the anti-theist community when 20 million Stalin starved Russians, 5 million butchered Cambodians, and 2 million tortured Sudanese Christians doesn't serve as evidence for anything....

Let's all just face it: the human race is both borked and blessed and neither religion nor science nor politics or public policy can safely rest in the camp of "The Good." Why? Cause people (in general) are borked, and no amount of education, re-education, de-education, or a-education is ever going to change that.

Flick

To which I would retort that:

-Stalin killed (or order the killings of at any rate) far more than 20 million.

-Unless you're counting disease or something, most people cite 2 million Cambodians butchered.

-The killings in the Sudan are, sadly, probably underexposed in general.

Oh, and if you're insinuating that the anti-theist community is ignoring killings their intellectual brethren have committed, why mention Sudan?

And that such a negative view of human nature is entirely unwarranted. Certainly by the yardstick of almost any other species of animal on the planet, humans are remarkably pacifist. Put two of anything in a cage that aren’t interested in mating, and chances are you measure the time before they start fighting in hours or minutes. Somehow, homo sapiens, derided as “the lowest animal” by Clemens et al, is able to live in colonies even larger than insects can manage (both in terms of physical dimensions and population) without killing itself off.

The exceptions of violence, intolerance, ignorance and insanity are the punctuations that get attention in the history of the thinking reed. Whatever your gripes about your day, it would be truly unusual indeed to go through a rotation of this iron lump we call home and not have a majority of human interactions be positive. Indeed, society as we know it would plainly be impossible were this not the case.

What then of the occasional lunatic who kills their own children (or someone else’s) on the grounds that some highly speculative being ordered them to do so? I say it is both highly unlikely, and also inevitable. Unlikely in that one could inhabit a multitude of different communities and never hear of such a thing, and inevitable in that statistics dictate that no matter how generally sane a population, such atrocities will eventually occur with large enough numbers.

Therefore, we may groan and roll our eyes, perhaps lament for the state of the world, but there is no compelling reason to do so. To be good people, we must do what we can to prevent such outrageous behavior, but should at the same time realize that it is extremely rare. Indeed, for the goodness that would make eradication of such madness possible to be anything more than the vainest of hopes, written with wind on water, the entire human condition would need be one of exception compassion, cooperation and even altruism.

 

[Roadtoad]

To which I would retort that:

-Stalin killed (or order the killings of at any rate) far more than 20 million.

-Unless you're counting disease or something, most people cite 2 million Cambodians butchered.

-The killings in the Sudan are, sadly, probably underexposed in general.

Oh, and if you're insinuating that the anti-theist community is ignoring killings their intellectual brethren have committed, why mention Sudan?

And that such a negative view of human nature is entirely unwarranted. Certainly by the yardstick of almost any other species of animal on the planet, humans are remarkably pacifist. Put two of anything in a cage that aren’t interested in mating, and chances are you measure the time before they start fighting in hours or minutes. Somehow, homo sapiens, derided as “the lowest animal” by Clemens et al, is able to live in colonies even larger than insects can manage (both in terms of physical dimensions and population) without killing itself off.

The exceptions of violence, intolerance, ignorance and insanity are the punctuations that get attention in the history of the thinking reed. Whatever your gripes about your day, it would be truly unusual indeed to go through a rotation of this iron lump we call home and not have a majority of human interactions be positive. Indeed, society as we know it would plainly be impossible were this not the case.

What then of the occasional lunatic who kills their own children (or someone else’s) on the grounds that some highly speculative being ordered them to do so? I say it is both highly unlikely, and also inevitable. Unlikely in that one could inhabit a multitude of different communities and never hear of such a thing, and inevitable in that statistics dictate that no matter how generally sane a population, such atrocities will eventually occur with large enough numbers.

Therefore, we may groan and roll our eyes, perhaps lament for the state of the world, but there is no compelling reason to do so. To be good people, we must do what we can to prevent such outrageous behavior, but should at the same time realize that it is extremely rare. Indeed, for the goodness that would make eradication of such madness possible to be anything more than the vainest of hopes, written with wind on water, the entire human condition would need be one of exception compassion, cooperation and even altruism.

To this, I would only add mention of the brutal practice of "Honor" killings, where a family member is murdered because they've somehow "shamed" the family name.