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Them, Themself as a singular pronoun

Is "them" and "themself" acceptable professional English (as a singular pronoun)

  • Yes, it makes sense.

    Votes: 17 60.7%

  • Heavens no! Her majesty would not be amused! *clutches pearls*

    Votes: 10 35.7%

  • On planet X, the preferred pronouns are xe, xem, xyr, and xyrself

    Votes: 1 3.6%
  • Total voters
    28

Puppycow

Penultimate Amazing
Puppycow
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So what is the general consensus in 2016. Assume you are writing not just on an internet forum, but something for a client or for your company and it needs to be professional. I am currently editing a document and the term "user" comes up a lot, and I don't like "he or she", "himself or herself". I'd like to just us "them" and "themself" as pronouns for this user. What do you think?
 
Who ****** cares? Apart from pedants . Imagination and vision please . Depth and breadth , are "musts ". Have you ever met anybody who picks up on minor grammar niggles who is not a crashing bore and numbingly small minded ?
 
Minoosh said:
No.
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Well then, "themselves" doesn't matter either. But "themself" is better because it indicates the singular number of "them" more clearly.
Minoosh said:
I've fallen into the habit of allowing "themselves" sometimes. It doesn't parse but everyone understands it.
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This turning plural into singular pronouns is not new. The singular second person "thou" has everywhere in English, except perhaps in parts of Yorkshire, been displaced by the plural "you"; and nobody has a problem with "yourself", as opposed to "yourselves".

I have seen a pontifical encyclical in which the Pope refers to his own person as "Ourself", while using the "Royal We", even further exalted by a capital letter.
 
Craig B said:
Well then, "themselves" doesn't matter either. But "themself" is better because it indicates the singular number of "them" more clearly. This turning plural into singular pronouns is not new. The singular second person "thou" has everywhere in English, except perhaps in parts of Yorkshire, been displaced by the plural "you"; and nobody has a problem with "yourself", as opposed to "yourselves".

I have seen a pontifical encyclical in which the Pope refers to his own person as "Ourself", while using the "Royal We", even further exalted by a capital letter.
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They say "thou" in Yorkshire? Sounds awesome!
 
The usage dates back to medieval times. It doesn't always scan right but it is correct.

What about "enables them to visually check?" If the previous sentence is obviously talking about the user, the identity can carry forward for a sentence or two until someone else is addressed and muddies up who "they" is.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Can you provide a sentence you are struggling with to provide a little context?
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I can't provide examples from puppycow's document, but here's an example of where a skeptic might want to use themself.

First, let's run through some sentences using other pronouns:

I'd like to see the evidence for myself.
Would you like to see the evidence for yourself?
She'd like to see the evidence for herself.
He'd like to see the evidence for himself.​

These all look acceptable, yes?

They'd like to see the evidence for themselves.​

And that looks acceptable when referring to a group of people, yes?

Now suppose we are referring not to a group of people in general but to one person in general -- i.e. one hypothetical person who could be either male or female. In that case, the simplest way of expressing the thought seems to me to be

They'd like to see the evidence for themself.​

They in this sentence means she or he (but is much shorter and less awkward) and themself is the corresponding pronoun parallel in use to myself, yourself, herself, himself, themselves, in the previous examples.
 
Puppycow said:
. . . enables the user themself to visually check . . .
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I'm too lazy to argue the case as to acceptability, since I might have to go so far as to google around (shudder), but this particular example seems like a step up from "him or herself," an otherwise necessary but cumbersome locution.:twocents:
 
Nova Land said:
They'd like to see the evidence for themself.​

They in this sentence means she or he (but is much shorter and less awkward) and themself is the corresponding pronoun parallel in use to myself, yourself, herself, himself, themselves, in the previous examples.
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One would like to see the evidence for oneself​

This works too, and I use "one" like that from time to time. I think it sounds a bit archaic, so it might not work in every setting. It also sounds non-specific, a bit like saying that someone, anyone, would like to see the evidence, instead of a specific person.
 
Craig B said:
What about the split infinitive? Is it a problem?
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Split infinitives are a perfectly grammatical construct in English. The idea that they are not is a relic of the 19th Century, when certain academics wanted to make English more like Latin, where infinitives cannot be split. But in the case of Latin there is a good reason you cannot split the infinitive form of a verb: they are single words, not compounds like in English.
 
crescent said:
One would like to see the evidence for oneself​

This works too, and I use "one" like that from time to time. I think it sounds a bit archaic, so it might not work in every setting. It also sounds non-specific, a bit like saying that someone, anyone, would like to see the evidence, instead of a specific person.
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Yes, one is useful for a gender-neutral term, but it's more of a substitute for I than for he or she. One wonders, for instance, generally means something like I wonder, and other people like me might also wonder.

But suppose at some point you had asked in a thread for a person to present the evidence they claim to have. Suppose further that you are away from posting for a couple of days, and the person you had been requesting evidence from keeps refusing to present the evidence and instead keeps going on about how they've seen it and it's really really good and how irrational and unskeptical you're being by refusing to accept that.

Given that set-up, which of these sounds better as something I might post to try to get this person to understand your request for the evidence:

(a) I think what crescent was saying is that one would like to view the evidence for oneself.​

or

(b) I think what crescent was saying is that they would like to view the evidence for themself.​

Either one could serve, but to my ears the second sounds much better.
 
Language changes. Using a plural as a gender-neutral singular pronoun still makes me twitch a little, but that's because I grew up in an era when grammar was drummed into our little heads.

It would be nice if we could agree on a gender-neutral pronoun, but it seems as if every special snowflake wants their own choice. So rather than having to keep all the ze & xe & zie & fnargwobbles in mind, I'll use a plural.

(Personally, I like "one" too, but one does tend to feel as if one is making Royal Pronouncements.)
 
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