The world owes me a living

[SRW]

Back in my Freshman year of college I took Economics 101, I recall one lecture in particular. The Professor spoke about the welfare system in the united states. What he said was is that I will create a perpetual class of welfare recipients. The reason being that It give no incentives for getting out of welfare. It did infarct give disincentives for working, delaying having children and getting married.

Now at that time I supported my self by working in a brick yard in East Windsor Hills CT. 80% of the workforce was black and I had an opportunity to get to know many of my fellow co-workers quite well. One thing I observed was that they all worked hard, you could not survive in a brick yard it you slacked off. We were on piece work so the harder you worked the more you earned. We also had a union, with excellent benefits, and wages.

There were two distinct classes of people, the older workers, over 30 who had families, and for the most part were middle class home owners. The others where first generation welfare kids. Those under 30, the typical guy had a fancy car, lots of spending money, and number of girl-fiends with his children that were on welfare, and saw their daddy once in a blue moon. One of them flat out told me that "the world owes me a living" .


Any thoughts?

 

[Grammatron]

Back in my Freshman year of college I took Economics 101, I recall one lecture in particular. The Professor spoke about the welfare system in the united states. What he said was is that I will create a perpetual class of welfare recipients. The reason being that It give no incentives for getting out of welfare. It did infarct give disincentives for working, delaying having children and getting married.

Now at that time I supported my self by working in a brick yard in East Windsor Hills CT. 80% of the workforce was black and I had an opportunity to get to know many of my fellow co-workers quite well. One thing I observed was that they all worked hard, you could not survive in a brick yard it you slacked off. We were on piece work so the harder you worked the more you earned. We also had a union, with excellent benefits, and wages.

There were two distinct classes of people, the older workers, over 30 who had families, and for the most part were middle class home owners. The others where first generation welfare kids. Those under 30, the typical guy had a fancy car, lots of spending money, and number of girl-fiends with his children that were on welfare, and saw their daddy once in a blue moon. One of them flat out told me that "the world owes me a living" .


Any thoughts?

Sure, here's one you can relay over to them. Go f*** yourself. The only thing the world owes him is a guarantee that he will die some day just like everything else.

 

[Suezoled]

as a child, one's parents have an obligation (though they don't always live up to it) to feed, clothe, arrange education, and teach a child to shift for himself. As an adult, a person has the responsibility to make his own way in the world through his own luck and/or effort. A person who is able bodied, and sound enough of mind, should in fact shift for himself; everyone has their daily challenges, but it's simply a part of life to face them.

The world owes them a living, huh? For simply being born? Congrats kids; your mommy and daddy's sex organs worked. That doesn't mean being born makes you especially worthy of living off another person's efforts because you want it to.

But, again, I am silly.

 

[Ignatius]

Any thoughts?

Same thing I always see when people want to bash the welfare system. Anecdotes about people that abuse the system. "Some people abuse the system, therefor it should be eliminated!"

I always ask these people if they think the same about the stock market.

 

[SRW]

Re: Re: The world owes me a living

Sure, here's one you can relay over to them. Go f*** yourself. The only thing the world owes him is a guarantee that he will die some day just like everything else.

Actually I see this same attitude today in the poor section of town where my wife works. Mainly among the white and hispanic immigrants. The parents are hard working while the kids are irresponsible child factories. Oh by the way the school where my wife works, goes out of its way to assure the children that being poor is a good thing.

 

[Grammatron]

Re: Re: Re: The world owes me a living

Actually I see this same attitude today in the poor section of town where my wife works. Mainly among the white and hispanic immigrants. The parents are hard working while the kids are irresponsible child factories. Oh by the way the school where my wife works, goes out of its way to assure the children that being poor is a good thing.

In what way do they assure the children that it's a good thing?

 

[Grammatron]

Re: Re: The world owes me a living

Same thing I always see when people want to bash the welfare system. Anecdotes about people that abuse the system. "Some people abuse the system, therefor it should be eliminated!"

I always ask these people if they think the same about the stock market.

It's not all anecdotal data, it's logic. When you get something for free you have virtually no incentive to go find a job that would give you the same thing. That's just human nature as we are lazy species.

 

[Ignatius]

Re: Re: Re: The world owes me a living

It's not all anecdotal data, it's logic. When you get something for free you have virtually no incentive to go find a job that would give you the same thing. That's just human nature as we are lazy species.

Yes, your entire post was nothing but sound logic, not anecdotes that happen to justify your particular view that the world is made up of hard-workin good folk and then lazy good fer nuthins that just want a hand-out.

My bad.

 

[SRW]

Re: Re: The world owes me a living

Same thing I always see when people want to bash the welfare system. Anecdotes about people that abuse the system. "Some people abuse the system, therefor it should be eliminated!"

I always ask these people if they think the same about the stock market.

Where did I say it should be eliminated? Personally I believe it is necessary however needs to be reformed, with incentives, training and child care to help people work their way off.


Is the stock market in need of reforms also? You bet. Would I feel better about the stock marked if it were more highly managed, I sure would. So what is wrong with feeling the same about the welfare system?

 

[DavidJames]

I was struck by these apparent contradictions:

"One thing I observed was that they all worked hard, you could not survive in a brick yard it you slacked off. We were on piece work so the harder you worked the more you earned."

and

the title of the thread.

So I'm missing the point. You say "they all worked hard" but "One of them" made that comment. If you are trying to use an anecdote to prove the old adage "there's one in every crowd" you succeeded admirable.

 

[Ignatius]

Re: Re: Re: The world owes me a living

Where did I say it should be eliminated? Personally I believe it is necessary however needs to be reformed, with incentives, training and child care to help people work their way off.

Is the stock market in need of reforms also? You bet. Would I feel better about the stock marked if it were more highly managed, I sure would. So what is wrong with feeling the same about the welfare system? [/B][/QUOTE]

Your original post did not say anything about it being eliminated, reformed, or anything else. It just sounded to me like a typical bitch session about people on being on welfare soley because they are lazy, backed up by nothing but anecdotes.

 

[SRW]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The world owes me a living

In what way do they assure the children that it's a good thing?

An example off the top of my head is the free lunch program. About 70% of the students get free or reduced price lunch. Nothing wrong with that program that I can mention. However,
the students who are free, tease the ones who have to pay, and the staff does nothing to stop it. My wife told one pay student not to cry they paying money was not anything to be ashamed of, the principle took her aside and said, don't say that it makes the free students feel bad. I get stories like this from her almost nightly and not just about the lunch program.

 

[Chanileslie]

Re: Re: The world owes me a living

Same thing I always see when people want to bash the welfare system. Anecdotes about people that abuse the system. "Some people abuse the system, therefor it should be eliminated!"

I always ask these people if they think the same about the stock market.

There are people out there who do abuse the system, and I know a few. I also have known a few people who don't abuse the system, but have been trapped in it.

I think our welfare system, although it has undergone some reforms in the last 10 years, is a system that encourages people to be dependent rather than independent. And I think it should offer incentives for people who do get an education rather than being punitive to those who choose this option.

No, I don't think the whole system should be scrapped, but it should be revamped. I always thought a low interest or no interest loan system for education with some subsidies would be ideal and a maximum time limit one can receive monetary benefits. Also work programs and work counselors as well financial planning workshops and such would also be a benefit.

 

[SRW]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The world owes me a living

Your original post did not say anything about it being eliminated, reformed, or anything else. It just sounded to me like a typical bitch session about people on being on welfare soley because they are lazy, backed up by nothing but anecdotes.

Well I should have stopped at the first paragraph, and asked what you think of my professors theory. The example was nothing more than a personal observation of a case where I saw this take place. Sorry for not being more clear.

 

[SRW]

I was struck by these apparent contradictions:

"One thing I observed was that they all worked hard, you could not survive in a brick yard it you slacked off. We were on piece work so the harder you worked the more you earned."

and

the title of the thread.

So I'm missing the point. You say "they all worked hard" but "One of them" made that comment. If you are trying to use an anecdote to prove the old adage "there's one in every crowd" you succeeded admirable.

Why should the State support the children of a hard working man who makes a good living. Instead of throwing arround cash, purchasing new cars don't you think he should be supporting the children?

He didn't think so because "the world owed him a living". His girlfriends kids where not his responsibility, his lifestyle was his only priority.

 

[Chanileslie]

I think there are those people who do have a sense of entitlement. I think it is a personal responsibility problem. These are people who do not take responsibility for their behaviors and actions.

Of course, I do not feel that in the USA, personal responsibility is an accepted way of behaving. We are taught, that if we do something stupid, sue. Sue who? Whoever one can get a large settlement from. Or if one commits a crime, it isn't because that person was a jerk or anything else, it is because,"I'm a victim of society because I grew up poor, black, hispanic, was abused, had someone laugh at my left front tooth [fill in absurd reason here]." And people get away with it all the time.

We must take responsibility for our actions and behaviors and part of that is being financially responsible and supporting ourselves and our children.

 

[SRW]

Re: Re: Re: The world owes me a living

There are people out there who do abuse the system, and I know a few. I also have known a few people who don't abuse the system, but have been trapped in it.

I think our welfare system, although it has undergone some reforms in the last 10 years, is a system that encourages people to be dependent rather than independent. And I think it should offer incentives for people who do get an education rather than being punitive to those who choose this option.

No, I don't think the whole system should be scrapped, but it should be revamped. I always thought a low interest or no interest loan system for education with some subsidies would be ideal and a maximum time limit one can receive monetary benefits. Also work programs and work counselors as well financial planning workshops and such would also be a benefit.

This is exactly what my professor predicted would happen, and how it should be run, encouraging people to rise out of welfare instead of punishing them for having initiative.

 

[Ignatius]

ok, if you want to exchange lovely anecdotes

Do any of you people that constantly bitch about welfare actually know what it is like for a kid that is on welfare? It's a ◊◊◊◊ life, I can tell you from experience.

You go to school as a second class citizen. Everybody knows you are poor and makes fun of you because of it. You do not get the same clothes or the same toys or get to go to the places that the other kids do.

You do not have the same opportunities other kids do. In my case my mother could not afford a lot of the extra-cirricular activities that other kids do. Band costs money, sports cost money, I even missed out on an advanced math program because it had to be paid by the parents (and the trend is moving more towards having students pay for these activities). You stand in a different line to get your free lunch tickets. It is like you are living in a world that you can't really take part in.

Sometimes emergency expenses come up and you go hungry.

What you do get is a chance to live. You don't starve to death and you get a chance to grow up, make something of yourself and give back what you know has been given to you.

Of course the same people that bitch about this huge welfare system and how badly it needs to be reformed never mention what a patheticly small percentage it is of the national budget. They are never pushing for "reform" of the military that would make a much bigger difference in their tax burden that they get so worked up over.

To these people that get so worked up over feeding poor people; I wish you a short, brutal life.

Hugs and smooches,

Ignatius

 

[Grammatron]

Re: ok, if you want to exchange lovely anecdotes

Do any of you people that constantly bitch about welfare actually know what it is like for a kid that is on welfare? It's a ◊◊◊◊ life, I can tell you from experience.

You go to school as a second class citizen. Everybody knows you are poor and makes fun of you because of it. You do not get the same clothes or the same toys or get to go to the places that the other kids do.

You do not have the same opportunities other kids do. In my case my mother could not afford a lot of the extra-cirricular activities that other kids do. Band costs money, sports cost money, I even missed out on an advanced math program because it had to be paid by the parents (and the trend is moving more towards having students pay for these activities). You stand in a different line to get your free lunch tickets. It is like you are living in a world that you can't really take part in.

Sometimes emergency expenses come up and you go hungry.

What you do get is a chance to live. You don't starve to death and you get a chance to grow up, make something of yourself and give back what you know has been given to you.

Of course the same people that bitch about this huge welfare system and how badly it needs to be reformed never mention what a patheticly small percentage it is of the national budget. They are never pushing for "reform" of the military that would make a much bigger difference in their tax burden that they get so worked up over.

To these people that get so worked up over feeding poor people; I wish you a short, brutal life.

Hugs and smooches,

Ignatius

You and your extremes, can't you think in terms of middle? Where did I suggest that welfare system is to be destroyed and poor people ignored that's right nowhere. For you information I was once poor and a child and on welfare. It's no picnic, but it encourages you to work harder to get a better life for yourself. You also learn to appreciate things better. However, on the flip-side welfare does keep you down. If my parents were to get a job they would lose all health benefits and pay extra taxes right away. There is no benefit to leave welfare at that point.

In my view, a welfare program should only provide for the kids where they get free health, x amount for food and that's it. Prent(s) should get only 1-year worth of support and then they should be on their own.

 

[Ignatius]

Re: Re: ok, if you want to exchange lovely anecdotes

You and your extremes, can't you think in terms of middle?

Behold Grammatron, Voice of Reason and Representative of the Middle:

Sure, here's one you can relay over to them. Go f*** yourself. The only thing the world owes him is a guarantee that he will die some day just like everything else.