The Vietnam War Memorial....

[Malachi151]

This memorial is a paradox. By making the memorial the country has made what it symbolizes patriotic, when in fact it really should not be patriotic.

So now people associate the Vietnam War with pride for country and support for the government, when in fact that's really the opposite of what it symbolizes.

I bring it up because I turned on TV and it was on FOX (go figure) and they had a NASCAR ad (again, go figure) and it had some song about patriotism playing and flags waiving in the background, then showing NASCARs and cutting back and fourth to military images.

Overall a well constructed piece of propaganda. Mixed in with the various pieces of military shots they showed "the wall" several times.

Now, is Vietnam really a symbol of patriotism and love of country and a symbol of a good country that honors its citizens? To me it is a symbol of insane leaders that killed 2 million Vietnamese and 50,000+ Americans due to stupidity while lying to the American people every step of the way.

The Vietnam War will never make me feel pride for American leaders, the American flag, or the American military, it makes me feel the opposite.

The Wall is a memorial to people that died for no good reason because people were too many people were too patriotic to prevent it from happening.

Its a memorial that pays honor to those to died and those that fought to end the war, it pays no honor to patriotism, it pays honor to those that were brave enough not to be patriots.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I live thirty minutes from the Memorial. My birth father's name is on it.

To me, the wall is a powerful, moving experience, and there isn't any overt patriotic message in viewing the wall, only sadness.

See it, and come away with a rah rah patriotism, or see it and come away depressed by the horrors man visits on himself. The wall itself doesn't tell you how to interpret it.

 

[a_unique_person]

I live thirty minutes from the Memorial. My birth father's name is on it.

To me, the wall is a powerful, moving experience, and there isn't any overt patriotic message in viewing the wall, only sadness.

See it, and come away with a rah rah patriotism, or see it and come away depressed by the horrors man visits on himself. The wall itself doesn't tell you how to interpret it.

Perhaps it is another example of the dead being expolited for the purposes of the living.

 

[Tony]

This memorial is a paradox. By making the memorial the country has made what it symbolizes patriotic, when in fact it really should not be patriotic.

Can you back up the claim that the Vietnam War Memorial was build to symbolize patriotism?

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Perhaps it is another example of the dead being expolited for the purposes of the living.

I don't know if you've seen it. If you can walk the length of that wall, and come away with this perhaps-impression, I would say you are a most empty, cynical person.

 

[a_unique_person]

I don't know if you've seen it. If you can walk the length of that wall, and come away with this perhaps-impression, I would say you are a most empty, cynical person.

I was not referring to the board itself, but the uses made of it.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Righto, sorry then.

 

[Malachi151]

I live thirty minutes from the Memorial. My birth father's name is on it.

To me, the wall is a powerful, moving experience, and there isn't any overt patriotic message in viewing the wall, only sadness.

See it, and come away with a rah rah patriotism, or see it and come away depressed by the horrors man visits on himself. The wall itself doesn't tell you how to interpret it.

I agree, my issue was with FOX's inclusion of shots of the wall in a media montage that was highly patriotic. I take issue with that, which is kinda stupid because I know that all the media crap is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ anyway so its kinda like telling a member of the KKK that you take issue when he uses the word ◊◊◊◊◊◊, I mean who are you kidding. Anyway, to me its just a subtle example of the how ideas become institutionalized in this country.

Showing a media montage with a patriotic song playing, showing race cars, showing people in uniform, and then showing The Wall, is institutionalizing a memorial that is, at least IMO, a symbol of everything that is wrong with the institution of the establishment.

And to see it a little different way, I think that its ultimately inevitable that The Wall will become a symbol of patriotism, because the establishment built it, it within their realm of influence.

That is not to say that they should not have, I'm not trying to place blame or anything here, I'm just saying its an interesting thing to consider.

When you honor someone, or something, you take on the honor of those that you are honoring.

So, the feelings about the honored get transferred to the honoree, its just the way it goes. Ultimately the only people that really fail to fall victim to that are the ones with direct knowledge of the events, so in time it is inevitable that people will associate The Wall with American "goodness" and pride in the establishment.

If I shoot someone, and then go to his funeral and honor him, his family will likely not think highly of me, but if someone is at the funeral that is not aware of my involvement in the killing they would think highly of me. So, as knowledge slips and memories fade, The Wall serves the interests of those that were the very cause of the problem in the first place

 

[Mercutio]

From the moment the design was unveiled the Wall has been the subject of contraversy--in part, that's why the other statue (the one nobody remembers is part of the Vietnam Memorial) was added to the site. I suppose, like many memorials, it means many things to many people.

I wonder if it means nothing to anybody. I have never seen anybody unaffected by their visit to the wall. To me, it is perhaps the single most emotionally overwhelming monument I have ever seen.

Perhaps the "single" in that last sentence is more important than I originally intended. I remember walking through Arlington Cemetary, viewing the rows upon rows of graves, and being more moved than at the Vietnam memorial. I have not seen, but have heard that the reaction is similar at the Normandy memorial. Anyone here know firsthand?

 

[Crossbow]

This memorial is a paradox. By making the memorial the country has made what it symbolizes patriotic, when in fact it really should not be patriotic.

So now people associate the Vietnam War with pride for country and support for the government, when in fact that's really the opposite of what it symbolizes.

...

Generally speaking I would say that your comments about all most all war memorials are actually quite accurate. I have found that most of them are about one-half patriotism and one-half honoring the people who actually did the hard work of the fighting. And as time goes on, the patriotism portion becomes larger and larger.

However, the Vietnam War Memorial is an exception to this rule. Please note that all that one sees is the names in alphabetical order of those who died. There are no flags, no weapons, no images of brave solidiers, no excerpts of speeches by former presidents or pictures of them. Instead, just the names of those who died in the actual fighting.

So I would say that this is one of the few war memorials that really honors the fighters, as opposed to glorifying the ideas they supposed fought for.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: The Vietnam War Memorial....

Generally speaking I would say that your comments about all most all war memorials are actually quite accurate. I have found that most of them are about one-half patriotism and one-half honoring the people who actually did the hard work of the fighting. And as time goes on, the patriotism portion becomes larger and larger.

However, the Vietnam War Memorial is an exception to this rule. Please note that all that one sees is the names in alphabetical order of those who died. There are no flags, no weapons, no images of brave solidiers, no excerpts of speeches by former presidents or pictures of them. Instead, just the names of those who died in the actual fighting.

So I would say that this is one of the few war memorials that really honors the fighters, as opposed to glorifying the ideas they supposed fought for.

The actual number of war dead from that war on the Vietnam side is highly debateable, but it is worth considering that an equivalent wall in Vietnam would be at least 20 times larger.

 

[Malachi151]

Re: Re: The Vietnam War Memorial....

Generally speaking I would say that your comments about all most all war memorials are actually quite accurate. I have found that most of them are about one-half patriotism and one-half honoring the people who actually did the hard work of the fighting. And as time goes on, the patriotism portion becomes larger and larger.

However, the Vietnam War Memorial is an exception to this rule. Please note that all that one sees is the names in alphabetical order of those who died. There are no flags, no weapons, no images of brave solidiers, no excerpts of speeches by former presidents or pictures of them. Instead, just the names of those who died in the actual fighting.

So I would say that this is one of the few war memorials that really honors the fighters, as opposed to glorifying the ideas they supposed fought for.

Good points, good points. As I said, this was all prompted not from the wall itself, but from that media blitz, which put it into a different light then it's natural state.

Still though, I think that patriotism is understandable for WWII memorials, etc. (well, not really, but for the sake of argument anyway)

 

[Hypocolius]

I remember walking through Arlington Cemetary, viewing the rows upon rows of graves, and being more moved than at the Vietnam memorial. I have not seen, but have heard that the reaction is similar at the Normandy memorial. Anyone here know firsthand?

I haven't been to Normandy, but I have been to Ypres (amongst others) and can state that even the smallest, most insignificant war cemetry can bring people to tears.

Whenever I travel I make a point of visiting any Commonwealth War Graves cemetries in the area (and they are all over the world, found three in Brazil last year). Not because I'm patriotic, far from it, but because.... I'm glad it wasn't me who had to fight. They probably didn't want to fight (and die) either, but they did, and now I don't have to. That presupposes a causative relationship between their deaths and my not being called up I know, but who knows if that relationship is true or not? Whatever the individual soldier's reasons for joining up, making the world a safer place for their descendants must have been high on the list, and so I say thank you for that, whenever I can.

 

[Skeptic]

I don't know if you've seen it. If you can walk the length of that wall, and come away with this perhaps-impression, I would say you are a most empty, cynical person.

How could he walk the lenght of that wall? "AUP" was never in the US, or israel (or the Middle East, for that matter.)

It is just his amazing psychic powers that allow him to instantly discover the REAL REASON(tm) behind anything and everything israel and/or the USA does. The REAL REASON(tm), is, of course, always a part of some cynical, nefarious plot to brainwash (or kill) the masses, like in this case.

But don't ask him for any proof. He just KNOWS it's the "awful truth". Anybody that disagrees for any reason (such as actually living in israel/the US) is a brainwashed idiot.

 

[LW]

But don't ask him for any proof. He just KNOWS it's the "awful truth". Anybody that disagrees for any reason (such as actually living in israel/the US) is a brainwashed idiot.

By the way, did you ever offer a proof for your claim that all European liberals want the death of all Jews? (Link: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11522)

 

[aerocontrols]

The REAL REASON(tm)

you can get the '™' symbol by holding down your ALT key and typing 0153 on the number pad with num lock off.

REAL REASON™

MattJ

 

[no one in particular]

Re: Re: Re: The Vietnam War Memorial....

The actual number of war dead from that war on the Vietnam side is highly debateable, but it is worth considering that an equivalent wall in Vietnam would be at least 20 times larger.

Yes, but there is a consideration to make…do we or do we not add the names of all the Vietnamese that Pol Pot slaughtered after the US pullout? That is a big freakin’ wall.

 

[Malachi151]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Vietnam War Memorial....

Yes, but there is a consideration to make…do we or do we not add the names of all the Vietnamese that Pol Pot slaughtered after the US pullout? That is a big freakin’ wall.

Speaking of, I thought this was interesting, and commented on it in my paper (linked in my sig):

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/2991.htm

Born in 1945, Mr. Armitage graduated in 1967 from the U.S. Naval Academy, where he was commissioned an Ensign in the U.S. Navy. He served on a destroyer stationed on the Vietnam gunline and subsequently completed three combat tours with the riverine/advisory forces in Vietnam. Fluent in Vietnamese, Mr. Armitage left active duty in 1973 and joined the U.S. Defense Attache Office, Saigon. Immediately prior to the fall of Saigon, he organized and led the removal of Vietnamese naval assets and personnel from the country.

My comment to this was:

Interestingly, what this statement leaves out is that the pullout from Saigon was considered a tragic failure, leaving thousands of Vietnamese loyal to America behind with no American support as the North Vietnamese forces moved in on Saigon.

 

[pgwenthold]

From the moment the design was unveiled the Wall has been the subject of contraversy--in part, that's why the other statue (the one nobody remembers is part of the Vietnam Memorial) was added to the site. I suppose, like many memorials, it means many things to many people.

I wonder if it means nothing to anybody. I have never seen anybody unaffected by their visit to the wall. To me, it is perhaps the single most emotionally overwhelming monument I have ever seen.

By itself, I would not agree. Coupled with the typical experience of men kneeling by wall crying, and it makes it far more moving.

In terms of the monument itself, I prefered the Korean memorial just across the way for emotionally overwhelming. Something about it being so lifelike and so sad at the same time.

 

[Linda]

I found the Vietnam memorial much more moving than visiting Arlington Cemetery. The names on the wall represent armed forces members actually killed while serving in Vietnam while the rows and rows of grave stones in Arlington didn't necessarily mean all those people had actually been killed in one war, but that they had served in wartime. I would think visiting a WWI or WWII cemetary in France would be an overwhelming experience when you realize all those graves represented men killed in that particular battle.
That said, I always felt the Vietnam Memorial was to recognize the sacrifice of those men and women who died in an unpopular war; not as a patriotic expression. And aren't the names listed in the order they were killed rather than alphabetically, which gives the viewer an even more emotional experience.