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The truth movement and the mentally ill

CHF

Illuminator
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
3,871
The shooting at the Pentagon illustrates something that I've long been concerned about when it comes to the truth movement.

Average truthers are not dangerous, nor is the movement itself. Most truthers are what I'd call "casual believers" - the kind of people who claim there was a massive conspiracy because it's exciting and makes them feel as if they have special knowledge denied to the masses. It's a self-esteem thing, really.

Even the truthers who are more devoted and attend street actions, and drive off their friends and family, are not generally dangerous. Pitiful losers, yes, but not dangerous.

The real danger of the TM, IMO, is found in how truthers deal with those who really are insane.

Now I know it's easy to say that truthers by definition are crazy or insane (I'm certainly guilty of throwing those label around), but most of them are not clinically insane. They're just stupid. Indeed many of them don't really seem to believe it themselves deep down - hense their shocking reluctance to take any sort of real, meaningful action. To them it's just something they adopt to add excitement and meaning to an otherwise pointless life (it's either that or get a girlfriend and we know that ain't happening).

But there certainly are mentally ill people out there - sick people who need medication, councelling or a bed in an institution.

And what do truthers do for these poor people? Why, they tell them that they're perfectly right to be so paranoid, of course.

They tell them that the CIA really does follow them and really does tap their phone lines. There really is a conspiracy to stage terror attacks and set up a world-wide police state. There really is a plan to round up all truthers and put them into Dachau-syle FEMA death camps.

While this sort of nonsense is all good fun for the rank-and-file it's downright dangerous for folks like J. Patrick Bedell.

Given that such people really, really believe this stuff (unlike the frauds who claim they do yet refuse to even seek a peer-review), how can the mentally ill not lash out? Indeed, to them attacking government targets is a legitimate act of self-defence. And perhaps they'd be right to some degree if there really was a plan to round us up into camps. But there isn't!

While truthers are not criminally responsible for the actions of the mentally ill, they sure as hell are adding to the problem by working to confirm mentally ill delusions.
 
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I agree with all that you have said. I also think that those vocal and visible voices in the Truth Movement DO HOLD SOME RESPONSIBILITY. Are they fully to blame? No, of course not. The man was mentally ill, and one could make the argument that he may not have been sane enough at the time to be fully responsible. That said, when you preach a certain philosophy that creates fear, panic, and paranoia in those who are already so, you reinforce their delusions and their perceptions of reality. Enough of this, such as the continuous blow horn parade put out by Alex Jones and such, and you end up with what happened at the Pentagon.

I honestly believe that David Ray Griffin, Alex Jones, and Richard Gage all bare some of the responsibility for what happened at the Pentagon last week.

TAM:)
 
Yea, Alex Jones's paranoid ravings will make the insane do insane stuff. If it can make normally sane people stop and think maybe Jones is right, what the hell must the actual crazies think!
 
Much of the problem goes back to my question of what exactly we mean by the Truth Movement. Gage and Jones are clear examples, but most of the people who cause the problem you refer to are not older Truthers on the money train. Some large segment of the people I talk with about 911 are probably not Truthers in the sense we think of them. They may not even believe the US government or its agents had anything to do with 911. I suspect our very own Bill Smith would fit into this category.

The trouble this group creates is they encourage discourse that can not be distinguished from rantings of the mentally ill. Many of my contacts seem to believe this is the sort of free speech guarunteed by the Constitution. In the same way some might encourage art just because it's outrageous and shocking, they encourage what they perceive as the boundaries of free speech because this is the sort of the thing that will guaruntee all of our rights.

I increasingly believe some large portion of what we call the Truth Movement is made up of this group.

If the First Amendment will protect a scumbag like me, it will protect all of you.
- pornographer and self-proclaimed rights activist Larry Flynn.
 
This is a central question when discussing media personalities who espouse hysterical anti-government and anti-science theories.

None of us needs to be reminded that a lunatic was Chancellor of Germany and lead that entire country on an insane, hate and fear-driven path which killed 10's of millions.

Jews of course were the scapegoats of choice in that day, and they still are at risk for targeted attacks by individuals. The 9/11 Truth movement has included Jews of course in it's sights, but also many other sectors of society, most notably anyone who is in 'the government'.

Fomenting impotent rage is not a good idea, and the leaders of the 9/11 Truth movement are guilty of doing this constantly. They're not in positions of great power, thank God, but they do have some influence.

How much influence is hard to measure. But it is clearly there in Mr. Bedell's actions.
 
Much of the problem goes back to my question of what exactly we mean by the Truth Movement. Gage and Jones are clear examples, but most of the people who cause the problem you refer to are not older Truthers on the money train. Some large segment of the people I talk with about 911 are probably not Truthers in the sense we think of them. They may not even believe the US government or its agents had anything to do with 911. I suspect our very own Bill Smith would fit into this category.

I was following you up until this, lol?
 
While truthers are not criminally responsible for the actions of the mentally ill, they sure as hell are adding to the problem by working to confirm mentally ill delusions.

I'm sure we all know, but it doesn't hurt to remind everyone, that most mentally ill people are not violent.

Nevertheless, it's not good to encourage pathological fantasies in anyone.
 
The shooting at the Pentagon illustrates something that I've long been concerned about when it comes to the truth movement.

Average truthers are not dangerous, nor is the movement itself. Most truthers are what I'd call "casual believers" - the kind of people who claim there was a massive conspiracy because it's exciting and makes them feel as if they have special knowledge denied to the masses. It's a self-esteem thing, really.

Even the truthers who are more devoted and attend street actions, and drive off their friends and family, are not generally dangerous. Pitiful losers, yes, but not dangerous.

The real danger of the TM, IMO, is found in how truthers deal with those who really are insane.

Now I know it's easy to say that truthers by definition are crazy or insane (I'm certainly guilty of throwing those label around), but most of them are not clinically insane. They're just stupid. Indeed many of them don't really seem to believe it themselves deep down - hense their shocking reluctance to take any sort of real, meaningful action. To them it's just something they adopt to add excitement and meaning to an otherwise pointless life (it's either that or get a girlfriend and we know that ain't happening).

But there certainly are mentally ill people out there - sick people who need medication, councelling or a bed in an institution.

And what do truthers do for these poor people? Why, they tell them that they're perfectly right to be so paranoid, of course.

They tell them that the CIA really does follow them and really does tap their phone lines. There really is a conspiracy to stage terror attacks and set up a world-wide police state. There really is a plan to round up all truthers and put them into Dachau-syle FEMA death camps.

While this sort of nonsense is all good fun for the rank-and-file it's downright dangerous for folks like J. Patrick Bedell.

Given that such people really, really believe this stuff (unlike the frauds who claim they do yet refuse to even seek a peer-review), how can the mentally ill not lash out? Indeed, to them attacking government targets is a legitimate act of self-defence. And perhaps they'd be right to some degree if there really was a plan to round us up into camps. But there isn't!

While truthers are not criminally responsible for the actions of the mentally ill, they sure as hell are adding to the problem by working to confirm mentally ill delusions.

Very well said, CHF.

I'd add that truthers' main gist is that those in the government or authority are evil, and a major part of the conspiracy. This makes those workers at risk of violence from the criminally insane of the truthers. :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Holocaust_Memorial_Museum_shooting

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm
 
Good post CHF, I wish everyone would reason like this. Great synthesis.

I tried to picture myself as being Bedell in order to speculate his motivation. My current bet is that he was depressed to the point of wanting to commit suicide and thought he would do it "for the cause". The mentally ill are way more likely to embrace conspiracy. Now burden over truthers' shoulders, which in my point of view is unfair.

Not saying you agree with me on that, but your post is top notch.


Just a quick note, although we aren't sure about the bedell case, I think the CIA might well follow many nut cases if they're missing, armed and dangerous. Don't you agree?
 
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Good post CHF, I wish everyone would reason like this. Great synthesis.

I tried to picture myself as being Bedell in order to speculate his motivation. My current bet is that he was depressed to the point of wanting to commit suicide and thought he would do it "for the cause". The mentally ill are way more likely to embrace conspiracy. Now burden over truthers' shoulders, which in my point of view is unfair.

Not saying you agree with me on that, but your post is top notch.


Just a quick note, although we aren't sure about the bedell case, I think the CIA might well follow many nut cases if they're missing, armed and dangerous. Don't you agree?

Suicide by cop is likely. However the government in general and the CIA in particular doesn't monitor random nutcases on US soil. The only people that think that they do are random nutcases themselves. Do you have any idea how many people in the US alone are on antipsychotic meds? If it's even .1% of the population (and it's much more than that) the manpower involved would be enormous and couldn't be concealed.
 
Suicide by cop is likely.

Yep, what I meant.

However the government in general and the CIA in particular doesn't monitor random nutcases on US soil. The only people that think that they do are random nutcases themselves. Do you have any idea how many people in the US alone are on antipsychotic meds? If it's even .1% of the population (and it's much more than that) the manpower involved would be enormous and couldn't be concealed.

I know the nuts seem to think they're being monitored all the time. But I was wondering whether they do track some of them who aren't only nutcases on antipsychotic, but, like in this case, reported by his family two weeks before as missing, armed and dangerous. You still think it won't happen? They won't even try?
 
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I know the nuts seem to think they're being monitored all the time. But I was wondering whether they do track some of them who aren't only nutcases on antipsychotic, but, like in this case, reported by his family two weeks before as missing, armed and dangerous. You still think it won't happen? They won't even try?

It's basically a missing person report on an adult who has the right to come and go as he wished. I highly doubt that a nationwide APB is going out over something like that. He bought the gun legally, everything else is subjective. If he had been pulled over for a moving violation and his plate was in the system then maybe the outcome would have been different. As it was he was an average looking white guy and there was nothing to outwardly show that he was dangerous at the time. Hindsight is always 20/20.
 
It's basically a missing person report on an adult who has the right to come and go as he wished. I highly doubt that a nationwide APB is going out over something like that. He bought the gun legally, everything else is subjective. If he had been pulled over for a moving violation and his plate was in the system then maybe the outcome would have been different. As it was he was an average looking white guy and there was nothing to outwardly show that he was dangerous at the time. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Though his mother also stated to the authorities on top of that, that he had mental problems. But I see your point, makes sense.
 
Suicide by cop is likely.

It was more than that, he shot at and hit two Cops before they shot back and killed him.
If it was just suicide by cop he could have used blanks or aimed to miss those he would have kill him. He chose a specific target and the reason he chose it was almost certainly the 911 "truth" movement.

The question is what legal action could be taken against them? They certainly are guilty of both slander and libel against many people caught up in the 911 tragedy.

And would such action just give them the fame they crave? I would love to see the likes of Jones, Griffen, Balsamo and Ranke in court trying to prove what they allege but I rather think they would like it too :(
 
I know the nuts seem to think they're being monitored all the time. But I was wondering whether they do track some of them who aren't only nutcases on antipsychotic, but, like in this case, reported by his family two weeks before as missing, armed and dangerous. You still think it won't happen? They won't even try?

No, that's the FBI, NOT the CIA. The CIA has enough on their plate without worrying about lone mentally ill US citizens on US soil. Remember, the CIA is NOT a police agency, it has no police powers. That's the FBI.
 
I honestly believe that David Ray Griffin, Alex Jones, and Richard Gage all bare some of the responsibility for what happened at the Pentagon last week.


What would you suggest? Doing away with freedom of speech?
 
What would you suggest? Doing away with freedom of speech?

No, I don't think he's suggesting we do that.

Rather I think he believes (as I do) that TM leaders should feel a tad bit ashamed for basically telling mentally ill people that their paranoia is totally justified, and then acting surprised when (gasp!) these mentally ill followers don't take it all as a joke.

Alex Jones tells his listeners that there's a plot to round them all up into death camps and that the NWO should be "resisted." I know that most truthers don't really believe any of that crap, but guess what: some people do and, yes, they might actually "resist."
 

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