Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Jack by the hedge]

This is a continuation from here. As usual the split point is arbitrary and posters are free to refer to matters raised in previous threads in this series, as long as those matters are sufficiently on-topic.

Posted By: Agatha

... The point is that Sweden was not averse to doing it.

You wish to use "Sweden was not averse to doing it" as support for your fantastical version of what Sweden did. Unfortunately the example you chose of Sweden "doing it" was actually of Sweden doing something different. So your claim is diluted to the rather weaker "Sweden is not averse to doing some things".

As a substitute for actual evidence, it's not entirely compelling.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

No. The point is that Sweden was not averse to doing it. It was a note at the back, so intrigued, I looked it up for myself.

Then where did you get the idea that it was a case of enforced disappearance?

Where did you "look it up"?

You clearly didn't arrive at that conclusion based on the merits, as you cannot articulate a cogent case for how one might have come to that conclusion. I retain my suspicion that you cribbed it from Bollyn.

 

[zooterkin]

I certainly have not denigrated any recipient award for bravery.

Really?

OK OK I guess for a Swede falling from a winch and having to treadwater until someone rescued him, would command the highest medal for bravery.






[NB that was a joke before anybody gets upset.]

How is it a problem?

Are you seriously claiming Svensson got the equivalent of the Victoria Cross for falling into the water?

 

[JayUtah]

No.

Then, contrary to your insinuation, he's not your authority for the claim that the expulsion of the two Egyptians constitutes enforced disappearance. Therefore it remains a defensible conclusion that you got that idea from Bollyn.

The point is that Sweden was not averse to doing it.

To doing what? Under pressure from an angry and embattled United States government, and pursuant to false representations from the Egyptian government, Sweden short-circuits its asylum process and deports two Egyptians, one of whom later wins a judgment against Sweden for -- not enforced disappearance -- but exposing him to torture as the result of failed due process. While unacceptable, that's not as nefarious a tale as you seem to want everyone to believe.

You're still trying to argue from an assumption that one action is equivalent to another more serious action. You're still trying to argue that it's a pattern of behavior that somehow makes your claim more palatable that Sweden "disappeared" the MS Estonia officers.

It was a note at the back, so intrigued, I looked it up for myself.

I doubt your story. Where exactly did you "look it up?" We're looking for the source of your legal theory that the expulsion of Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery constituted enforced disappearance as defined in the 1998 Rome Statute, and that -- according to your claim -- a human-rights court upheld that theory. You've conceded that Drew Wilson is not the source of that theory. So far it's just you and Bollyn, and he was there first. Therefore the most parsimonious conclusion is that you got it from him, and -- as is your established pattern -- you're trying to deny the identity and reputation of your sources.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Really?

Please, I've only got so many ribs, Noel Coward.

 

[JesseCuster]

I certainly have not denigrated any recipient award for bravery. As I say, I am sure Svensson did something exceptional for his award.

Liar.

You've repeatedly denigrated Svensson for his medal.

1. You've repeatedly insisted that he only rescued 1 person and refused to acknowledge that he actually rescued 7 people.

2. You've repeatedly made snide and belittling comments about him getting a medal for falling into the water, or treading water, or because his winch broke, and have refused to acknowledge that the medal was for far more than that.

3. You've accused him of accepting his medal on false premises, that he actually got it to keep his mouth shut about disappearing the Estonia's officers, not for any bravery or commendable actions.

It's shameful and you think you can get away with repeatedly denigrating him by just saying "I'm not denigrating him!".

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It might (or might not, let's see) be worth pencilling in a timeline of what Vixen's version of events during the rescue are.

As I understand it, her story varies from the version in the report as it includes an earlier flight by a Swedish helicopter, not necessarily Y64, which is erased from the public record. On that flight, 9(?) senior officers of the ship were rescued.

At some point during the rescue missions, Aftonbladet got a story of Y64 having flown earlier than officially recorded and of Svensson having rescued 8 people.

Also at some point, information about the identities of these 9 first rescued got to someone in Sweden who realised they wanted those people to be disappeared (for uncertain motives but let's gloss over that for now). This was someone who had the authority to order it done. Vixen said that it likely happened after the 9 had been moved to Huddinge Hospital.

Now significantly, the initial rescue plan was that to save precious time the helicopters were to take survivors to the nearest ferry. Two Finnish helicopters began carrying out this plan and landed 4 each, but the heavy seas made it too dangerous and impractical to continue and later rescues were flown directly to land, which took more time. As time went on the condition of those being rescued generally deteriorated and so taking them straight to a hospital began to make greater sense.

But Vixen's early secret flight was before this initial plan was revised, and before the Swedish helicopter crew had any idea the people they'd saved were to be abducted. So which ship did the mystery helicopter land the 9 on, and when and where were they transferred next, and how was their existence hushed up with so many people having seen them?

I appreciate there aren't going to be any worthwhile answers to this as it's not what really happened, but I thought it might be worth looking at its practicability.

 

[Steve]

It might (or might not, let's see) be worth pencilling in a timeline of what Vixen's version of events during the rescue are.

As I understand it, her story varies from the version in the report as it includes an earlier flight by a Swedish helicopter, not necessarily Y64, which is erased from the public record. On that flight, 9(?) senior officers of the ship were rescued.

At some point during the rescue missions, Aftonbladet got a story of Y64 having flown earlier than officially recorded and of Svensson having rescued 8 people.

Also at some point, information about the identities of these 9 first rescued got to someone in Sweden who realised they wanted those people to be disappeared (for uncertain motives but let's gloss over that for now). This was someone who had the authority to order it done. Vixen said that it likely happened after the 9 had been moved to Huddinge Hospital.

Now significantly, the initial rescue plan was that to save precious time the helicopters were to take survivors to the nearest ferry. Two Finnish helicopters began carrying out this plan and landed 4 each, but the heavy seas made it too dangerous and impractical to continue and later rescues were flown directly to land, which took more time. As time went on the condition of those being rescued generally deteriorated and so taking them straight to a hospital began to make greater sense.

But Vixen's early secret flight was before this initial plan was revised, and before the Swedish helicopter crew had any idea the people they'd saved were to be abducted. So which ship did the mystery helicopter land the 9 on, and when and where were they transferred next, and how was their existence hushed up with so many people having seen them?

I appreciate there aren't going to be any worthwhile answers to this as it's not what really happened, but I thought it might be worth looking at its practicability.

Vixen has claimed several times in response to my requests for a coherent narrative that she is only reporting facts and has no thoughts of her own on the totality of how events around the sinking actually unfolded.

"You may take it with however many grains of salt you wish" - Chip Monck at Woodstock, 1969.

 

[Vixen]

Really?

I also said:

"I certainly have not denigrated any recipient award for bravery. As I say, I am sure Svensson did something exceptional for his award. I am sceptical it was to do with what JAIC describe and the Wikipedia footnote entered by a contributor describes the same in a newspaper article but it doesn't follow that this was the reason for the award."


As my arguments take the form of pro-, con- and conclusion, in future, please quote me in full context and not just cherry pick the cons and the jokes, in order to misrepresent my views.

 

[Vixen]

Then where did you get the idea that it was a case of enforced disappearance?

Where did you "look it up"?

You clearly didn't arrive at that conclusion based on the merits, as you cannot articulate a cogent case for how one might have come to that conclusion. I retain my suspicion that you cribbed it from Bollyn.

Did you not understand my response? I said I have been following this case since 1994 as I knew this vessel as Viking Sally and had travel on her. So we have some guy who calls himself 'Christopher Bollyn', a likely pseudonym, and probably a Russian Pro-Iran disinformation agent, who pops up in 2012 pulling bits out of the Estonia scandal into an article, not saying anything not already in the public domain and you have the audacity to claim he must be my guru.

In addition, I do not have any control over your thoughts so you can retain whatever you like.


Derek:
I think he retains his dignity, huh.
Clive:
Well, he retains everything.

~ Squatter and the Ant, Peter Cook and Dudley Moore

 

[Vixen]

Then, contrary to your insinuation, he's not your authority for the claim that the expulsion of the two Egyptians constitutes enforced disappearance. Therefore it remains a defensible conclusion that you got that idea from Bollyn.



To doing what? Under pressure from an angry and embattled United States government, and pursuant to false representations from the Egyptian government, Sweden short-circuits its asylum process and deports two Egyptians, one of whom later wins a judgment against Sweden for -- not enforced disappearance -- but exposing him to torture as the result of failed due process. While unacceptable, that's not as nefarious a tale as you seem to want everyone to believe.

You're still trying to argue from an assumption that one action is equivalent to another more serious action. You're still trying to argue that it's a pattern of behavior that somehow makes your claim more palatable that Sweden "disappeared" the MS Estonia officers.



I doubt your story. Where exactly did you "look it up?" We're looking for the source of your legal theory that the expulsion of Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery constituted enforced disappearance as defined in the 1998 Rome Statute, and that -- according to your claim -- a human-rights court upheld that theory. You've conceded that Drew Wilson is not the source of that theory. So far it's just you and Bollyn, and he was there first. Therefore the most parsimonious conclusion is that you got it from him, and -- as is your established pattern -- you're trying to deny the identity and reputation of your sources.

Since I had never read 'Bollyn' it must have been from elsewhere.

Where does one gets information about the world from?

 

[Vixen]

Liar.

You've repeatedly denigrated Svensson for his medal.

1. You've repeatedly insisted that he only rescued 1 person and refused to acknowledge that he actually rescued 7 people.

2. You've repeatedly made snide and belittling comments about him getting a medal for falling into the water, or treading water, or because his winch broke, and have refused to acknowledge that the medal was for far more than that.

3. You've accused him of accepting his medal on false premises, that he actually got it to keep his mouth shut about disappearing the Estonia's officers, not for any bravery or commendable actions.

It's shameful and you think you can get away with repeatedly denigrating him by just saying "I'm not denigrating him!".

You are the liar. Faking indignation.

 

[Vixen]

It might (or might not, let's see) be worth pencilling in a timeline of what Vixen's version of events during the rescue are.

As I understand it, her story varies from the version in the report as it includes an earlier flight by a Swedish helicopter, not necessarily Y64, which is erased from the public record. On that flight, 9(?) senior officers of the ship were rescued.

At some point during the rescue missions, Aftonbladet got a story of Y64 having flown earlier than officially recorded and of Svensson having rescued 8 people.

Also at some point, information about the identities of these 9 first rescued got to someone in Sweden who realised they wanted those people to be disappeared (for uncertain motives but let's gloss over that for now). This was someone who had the authority to order it done. Vixen said that it likely happened after the 9 had been moved to Huddinge Hospital.

Now significantly, the initial rescue plan was that to save precious time the helicopters were to take survivors to the nearest ferry. Two Finnish helicopters began carrying out this plan and landed 4 each, but the heavy seas made it too dangerous and impractical to continue and later rescues were flown directly to land, which took more time. As time went on the condition of those being rescued generally deteriorated and so taking them straight to a hospital began to make greater sense.

But Vixen's early secret flight was before this initial plan was revised, and before the Swedish helicopter crew had any idea the people they'd saved were to be abducted. So which ship did the mystery helicopter land the 9 on, and when and where were they transferred next, and how was their existence hushed up with so many people having seen them?

I appreciate there aren't going to be any worthwhile answers to this as it's not what really happened, but I thought it might be worth looking at its practicability.

The On Scene Commander (OSC) was the Captain of Silja Europa. He issued the command that the dead and the rescued should be brought to the deck of the ships and/or directly carried to the mainland, at Utö, 28 miles away. From there, they could be transferred to the nearest hospital in Turku (circa 25 km away from Utö) or to Hanko, circa 100km to the east, to a hospital that specialised in fractures.

Later patients were flown to Mariehamn, capital of the Ålands to help spread out overspill.

The OSC stipulated Utö because some special refuelling unit had been brought there, specifically to allow the helicopters to refuel without having to return all the way to Sweden, some 200km away and a 40 minute flight to Stockholm Berga.

I hope you now understand why it seems odd why Svensson said he flew eight and a deceased person straight to Huddinge Hospital, and also why Viking Mariella also made her way to Stockholm (where she was due on her journey, to be fair).

Obviously Svensson would not be able to divine a later decision to remove his early eight people from the survivors list, or he would not have openly briefed the reporters milling around Berga at the time.

Here is a map so you can see the geography and the logistics.

 

[Here_to_learn]

I hope you now understand why it seems odd why Svensson said he flew eight and a deceased person straight to Huddinge Hospital, and also why Viking Mariella also made her way to Stockholm (where she was due on her journey, to be fair).

Because they had three rescue men injured. It's clearly spelled out in the JAIC report, as well as in contemporary newspaper reports. For example in Svenska Dagbladet (paywall).

They had to go back to Berga to repair the winch and change the crew, and could then just as well deliver the rescued persons to Huddinge Sjukhus instead of spending extra time flying to Utö and then having to refuel to get back to base.

This is the JAIC text:

In connection with the rescue of the last of the three, a strong wave threw the rescue man against the lifeboat, injuring him. Since Y 74 now had three injured rescue men, it had to interrupt its rescue operations. In addition, fuel was running low. The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs. Y 74 returned to Berga at 0940 hrs to change crew.

 

[Mojo]

Did you not understand my response? I said I have been following this case since 1994 as I knew this vessel as Viking Sally and had travel on her. So we have some guy who calls himself 'Christopher Bollyn', a likely pseudonym, and probably a Russian Pro-Iran disinformation agent, who pops up in 2012 pulling bits out of the Estonia scandal into an article, not saying anything not already in the public domain and you have the audacity to claim he must be my guru.

Where was the erroneous idea that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians “already in the public domain”?

 

[Vixen]

Because they had three rescue men injured. It's clearly spelled out in the JAIC report, as well as in contemporary newspaper reports. For example in Svenska Dagbladet (paywall).

They had to go back to Berga to repair the winch and change the crew, and could then just as well deliver the rescued persons to Huddinge Sjukhus instead of spending extra time flying to Utö and then having to refuel to get back to base.

This is the JAIC text:

If 'fuel was running low', it made sense to go to Utö. Unless of course, if it was an earlier flight before the refuelling units were installed in place.

 

[Vixen]

Where was the erroneous idea that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians “already in the public domain”?

Drew Wilson's book came out in 2006, for a start, and I dare say the newspapers covered the story at the time.

 

[Here_to_learn]

If 'fuel was running low', it made sense to go to Utö. Unless of course it was an earlier flight before the refuelling units were installed in place.

Don't you read what you reply to? I specifically spelled it out.

They had to go to Berga for repairs and changing crew. They had enough fuel to go direct, and Huddinge hospital is basically next-door.

 

[Mojo]

Drew Wilson's book came out in 2006, for a start, and I dare say the newspapers covered the story at the time.

Yesterday you said that Wilson did not claim that it was an enforced disappearance. Do you have the page number for Wilson’s book including the idea that it was a forced disappearance? Or references for newspapers saying this?

 

[Andy_Ross]

The On Scene Commander (OSC) was the Captain of Silja Europa. He issued the command that the dead and the rescued should be brought to the deck of the ships and/or directly carried to the mainland, at Utö, 28 miles away. From there, they could be transferred to the nearest hospital in Turku (circa 25 km away from Utö) or to Hanko, circa 100km to the east, to a hospital that specialised in fractures.

Later patients were flown to Mariehamn, capital of the Ålands to help spread out overspill.

The OSC stipulated Utö because some special refuelling unit had been brought there, specifically to allow the helicopters to refuel without having to return all the way to Sweden, some 200km away and a 40 minute flight to Stockholm Berga.

I hope you now understand why it seems odd why Svensson said he flew eight and a deceased person straight to Huddinge Hospital, and also why Viking Mariella also made her way to Stockholm (where she was due on her journey, to be fair).

Obviously Svensson would not be able to divine a later decision to remove his early eight people from the survivors list, or he would not have openly briefed the reporters milling around Berga at the time.

Here is a map so you can see the geography and the logistics.

What do the logistics have to do with it?

When would Svensson have had opportunity to brief reporters 'openly milling around'? Do you think the reporters were wandering around the helicopter landing and fuelling sites?