• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The saga continues...

Cleon

King of the Pod People
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
25,649
Location
Atlanta, GA
The Schindlers have asked the full 12-member appellate court for an expedited rehearing. (link)

From the article:

President Bush called the situation "an extraordinary and sad case."

"I believe that in a case such as this, the legislative branch, the executive branch, ought to err on the side of life, which we have," Bush said. "And now we'll watch the courts make their decisions."

I hope this means that Bush and the GOP are done posturing and won't try any more legal maneuvering to keep this poor woman's shell "alive."

I'm not holding my breath. Every time I've hoped for some sort of logic and reason to come out of this administration I've been disappointed.
 
I believe that in a case such as this, the legislative branch, the executive branch, ought to err on the side of life, which we have," Bush said.
Is he really admitting that he and congressional Republicans have erred, or is he just misspeaking again?
 
This just in...The full appeals court has denied their request for an expedited rehearing. (Same link)
 
Didn't know which of the threads to put this, but did anyone else read the news story about how people have tried to break into the hospice to try to help?

What I thought was very funny was the 10 year old who tried to break in to give her water. How exactly was he going to do that?

I just get this really bad image of the kid pouring water into her mouth and drowning her.
 
pgwenthold said:
Didn't know which of the threads to put this, but did anyone else read the news story about how people have tried to break into the hospice to try to help?

What I thought was very funny was the 10 year old who tried to break in to give her water. How exactly was he going to do that?

I just get this really bad image of the kid pouring water into her mouth and drowning her.

And I have an even worse mental image of the Religious Right with their hand in Terri's back and badly ventriloquating, "I want to live!"

Though I'm sure that cartoon's been drawn and is ventriloquating even a word or am I making English up again?
 
Cleon said:

I hope this means that Bush and the GOP are done posturing and won't try any more legal maneuvering to keep this poor woman's shell "alive."

I'm not holding my breath. Every time I've hoped for some sort of logic and reason to come out of this administration I've been disappointed.

Well, Jeb Bush is already getting a little quieter and less animated about it.

Dubya ain't liking the poll that indicates that 68% of Americans did not like this latest fiasco and my guess is that he's telling little brother to sit down...

SCOTUS isn't gonna hear this thing. Like it or not, the Schindlers have had more than 3 swings at the bat and have struck out every time.

Dubya will make some flowery speeches. There will be condolensces all the way around. The talking heads will bleed as much airplay from this thing as they can until Wacko Jacko shows up to court in his pj's again. IMHO, Dubya needs to put some distance between himself and this entire event. Quick.
 
The Orlando Sentinel has a Q&A on this. It's free now, but I'm sure registration will be required soon.

See here.

...
Question: What is a "persistent vegetative state" and how is it diagnosed? Is it unusual for doctors to disagree?

Answer: People in a persistent vegetative state have lost all higher brain function, including the ability to think, experience emotions and understand the world around them. However, they continue to sleep and wake; open their eyes; breathe on the their own; and even make noises and facial expressions.

This is because their brain stems -- the portion of the brain that controls basic functions such as heartbeat and breathing -- continue to function.

Those suffering from this condition do not track objects with their eyes, blink on command or respond consistently to cues in the environment. When a patient fails tests over a period of time, doctors consider the condition "persistent."

There is no single test, such as a brain scan, that can peer inside the brain and absolutely determine a person's level of mental function. But doctors can diagnose the condition by testing a patient's ability to interact with his or her environment.

Doctors who have been appointed by Terri Schiavo's husband and the courts have determined that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no chance of recovery. Her parents and their physicians do not agree, maintaining that she is not vegetative and can recover.

Doctors who examine the same patient can reach different conclusions, but time is the best arbiter of diverging views, said Dr. Michael Pulley, an assistant professor of neurology at the University of Florida campus in Jacksonville.

"The way to resolve it is to see if there is any change [in the patient's ability to interact] over time," Pulley said, adding that improvements would be expected within the first weeks or months of the injury.

Terri Schiavo has been in this state for 15 years.

Q: Terri Schiavo appears to respond to her mother in a video released by the family. Her father said that she smiled Monday when he told her that her feeding tube could be re-inserted. Doesn't this show that she is not in a persistent vegetative state?

A: Terri Schiavo's parents say this is evidence that she is not in a vegetative state. Court-appointed physicians have not been able to document a consistent, predictable response from Terri that would indicate she is aware of her surroundings.

...

Q: Terri Schiavo's parents and a neurologist who examined her several years ago, Dr. William Hammesfahr, say the woman could get better with therapy. Would she be helped by rehabilitation?

A: Other doctors have concluded that she will not improve with rehabilitation, and previous attempts with therapy had no effect.

Terri underwent more than three years of rehabilitative therapy after her collapse in 1990, and her husband took her to a California center in late 1990 to have an experimental device implanted in her brain in hopes of stimulating activity.

Jay Wolfson, who reported to the court in December 2003, wrote: "In recent months, individuals have come forward indicating that therapies and treatments can literally regrow Theresa's brain tissue, restoring all or part of her functions. There is no scientifically valid, medically recognized evidence that this has been done or is possible, even in rats."

Q: Hammesfahr, the neurologist who examined Schiavo years ago at her parents' request, has said that Terri could eat and drink on her own if fed. Is this true?

A: Doctors performed "swallowing tests" on Terri in 1991, 1992 and 1993 and concluded that she "was not able to swallow without the risk of aspiration," which occurs when fluid or food is inhaled into the lungs.

Pulley, from the University of Florida, said that some patients in vegetative states can swallow, but this does not necessarily indicate higher thinking abilities because swallowing is a "reflexive" action.
 
The husband should let the lifers come in and force a ham sandwich and coke down her throat.

She'll die, they can go up on murder charges and we can go on with our lives..
 
Now Jeb is trying to take custody of her. Will this EVER end?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_72

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Terri Schiavo's parents saw their options vanish one by one Wednesday as a federal appeals court refused to reinsert her feeding tube and the Florida Legislature decided not to intervene in the epic struggle. Refusing to give up, Gov. Jeb Bush sought court permission to take custody of Schiavo.
 
hazyandconfused said:
Now Jeb is trying to take custody of her. Will this EVER end?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_72

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Terri Schiavo's parents saw their options vanish one by one Wednesday as a federal appeals court refused to reinsert her feeding tube and the Florida Legislature decided not to intervene in the epic struggle. Refusing to give up, Gov. Jeb Bush sought court permission to take custody of Schiavo.

Did you hear about this supposed "new evidence" that maybe she is not in a PVS? They sent in a pro-life doctor (with great credentials, mind you, but admittedly pro-life) who stood by her bed but didn't examine her. His conclusion? He saw no signs that she had any speech, motor, or brain functions. But, he says, he still thinks she is not PVS and may have been mis-diagnosed.

Well, Jebby jumps all over this claiming that there is "new evidence" that she is not PVS.

I find the whole thing disturbing. There's been 15 years of doctor testimony that the court has determined has fallen in clear favor of PVS. Now, one guy, clearly biased, comes in and says, "they all may be wrong"? What are we supposed to do, ignore the last 15 years of testimony? That would an absolutely horrid precident. Anyone can find a single person to say something in their favor, you don't throw out everything else just to listen to him.

The parents have trotted out doctor after doctor who they claim support their case, I don't see how this guy is any different. He's just another doctor for the parents.

Of course, that is aside that he _didn't_ actually find any evidence that she was not in PVS. He even admits that there are no clinical signs that she is not. But then he throws in an "opinion" that she isn't, but that opinion is completely baseless and is not "evidence."

He admits that it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck but he thinks it is a spastic monkey with flat feet.
 
What amazes me is that, despite the duration of this human drama play, Jeb Bush hasn't learned a goddam thing....

...or has he?

He's got to know that by citing the opinion of a physician who hasn't fully examined Terri Schiavo that he's practically beggin the State to ignore this request for custody.

But, his latest move may serve to placate the parents and the RR who will remember Jeb Bush as having done everything in his power to save Terri.

Maybe he aint so dumb after all....

;)
 
Could someone explain to a Brit what was going on on Capitol Hill with this case?

It seems to have given the case back to some federal judges who are now going about their business of agreeing with all the previous judges, i.e. finding for the husband's side of the case. So what did the law that Dubya signed in a hurry actually say?
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
Could someone explain to a Brit what was going on on Capitol Hill with this case?

It seems to have given the case back to some federal judges who are now going about their business of agreeing with all the previous judges, i.e. finding for the husband's side of the case. So what did the law that Dubya signed in a hurry actually say?

As I understand it, that federal court had previously refused to even hear the case because they didn't have jurisdiction. The law Congress and Bush just passed gave them jurisdiction to hear it.

Jeremy
 
Surprise, surprise, SCOTUS has refused the appeal.

How much more legal wrangling and wasting of taxpayers' money is going to go into this?
 
pgwenthold said:
Did you hear about this supposed "new evidence" that maybe she is not in a PVS? They sent in a pro-life doctor (with great credentials, mind you, but admittedly pro-life) who stood by her bed but didn't examine her. His conclusion? He saw no signs that she had any speech, motor, or brain functions. But, he says, he still thinks she is not PVS and may have been mis-diagnosed.

An excellent article discussing this case, by a bioethicist (sorry if this has been linked before).

There's a scan of her brain at the link:
schiavo_ct_scan.jpg
As one of the court decisions in this case said (pdf; p. 7):

"Although the physicians are not in complete agreement concerning the extent of Mrs. Schiavo's brain damage, they all agree that the brain scans show extensive permanent damage to her brain. The only debate between the doctors is whether she has a small amount of isolated living tissue in her cerebral cortex or whether she has no living tissue in her cerebral cortex."

The cerebral cortex is responsible for cognition and the integration of sensation. Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex is not only dead; it has liquified. If her cerebral cortex were still there but for some reason not working, then there might be hope that she could recover. But in her case, it's gone. In order for her to recover, it would have to be literally recreated...

My understanding is that the dark bits are spinal fluid; and thus that the fact that the scan of Terri Schiavo's brain shows huge dark areas, both in the center and elsewhere, indicates that an awful lot of her brain has been replaced by spinal fluid. I am not a doctor, of course. But Rivka, who is, writes: "The amount of brain tissue missing is truly shocking." And PZ Meyers adds: "I am not a medical doctor, but I do have that Ph.D. in neuroscience (I am eminently qualified to analyze the brains of fish and insects), and that is one ghastly mess. That's not much of a brain, it's a balloon bobbing about in there." (In using these quotes, I mean no disrespect to Ms. Schiavo, for whom I have nothing but sympathy.)
 
Matabiri said:
An excellent article discussing this case, by a bioethicist (sorry if this has been linked before).

There's a scan of her brain at the link:
schiavo_ct_scan.jpg

Neat link. Is there one to compare Dubya's brain with that of a human, or is the picture on the left close enough?
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
Neat link. Is there one to compare Dubya's brain with that of a human, or is the picture on the left close enough?

I was thinking a picture of a worn out shoe might suffice.
 

Back
Top Bottom