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The reason I love grammar

LibraryLady

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Some of this topic has been covered elsewhere, so forgive me if I’m repetitive, but I feel the need to explain my love for grammar. If my fellow moderators want to merge this anywhere, please feel free.

It’s not that I find grammar useful, although I do, but that I actually love the subject itself. When someone calls my department and asks a grammar question, I’m happy to answer it; it’s not a chore as some questions are.

Grammar is rather like etiquette. It has a definite purpose which it fulfills beautifully, that of letting people know what to do next.

Think of the comma, lowly and despised. Now think of the comma lonely and despised. In the first sentence of this paragraph you knew where to breathe. Such are the rules of etiquette: when you are standing at a door, exiting or entering, and a disabled person/parent with a stroller/elderly person approaches, you hold the door.

And like etiquette, some of the rules are arcane and silly. Take contractions of words. “Haven’t” is the contraction for “Have not.” Shouldn’t it be “have n’t?” Take the question mark just used. In England it would be properly outside the inverted commas. In the United States it is properly inside the quotation marks.

Take the teaspoon. That which we usually refer to as a “teaspoon” in the U.S. is not a teaspoon at all, but a dessert spoon. A teaspoon is smaller and the handle is shorter. I just came from having tea at a coffee shop, where they actually do use teaspoons. Is this useful? No. But it’s rather charming.

Looking at the grammar of a written piece is like looking at a ballet. The grammar is the choreographer, mapping the rhythm of the words. The pauses, the full stops, the rise and fall, all are controlled by the grammar. Just as etiquette controls the rhythm of our daily lives and prevents misunderstandings.

I guess what I’m saying is that we can live without grammar, just as we can live without etiquette. It just makes life harder when we try to.
 
Take the question mark just used. In England it would be properly outside the inverted commas. In the United States it is properly inside the quotation marks.

Please, please explain to me why so many times I see a comma inside inverted commas, often within a quote, albeit that comma cleary does not belong to the actual quote, but to the sentence around it.

Example:

“I've never found any negative or tragic ones," he says, preferring to...

I just don't get it, this would never work in my first language or the others I know a little bit about, and I failed to Google for an answer.

Will send food for your budgie, I promise.
 
It's to indicate that it is one sentence. With a period inside the quotation marks, it would look like two sentences and make much less sense.

Nick likes millet.
 
Look at it with the period (grr, it's a full stop):

“I've never found any negative or tragic ones." he says, preferring to...

The full stop says that the last word of the sentence is 'ones' and so the next sentence begins 'he says' (which would then properly be 'He says').

But of course it's not the next sentence at all, it's part of the same one the quote belonged to. Otherwise we'd be left wondering what he's about to say.
 
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Library Lady,

Thank you for opening this thread. I am taking notes on it as I read through it.

Sincerely,

Fnord of Dyscordia
 
I am reminded of a Peanuts cartoon I once saw, where one of the characters (I don't remember which one) was writing a letter. The letter went something like this:

"Today? we? learned? how? to? write? a? question? mark?"
 
Nobby, that reminds me of a funny but true anecdote I have to share:

Our third grader came home not long ago from school, explaining that he had learned how to use a comma. So I asked him, "when do you use one?"

He answered (fairly enough, I thought), "anytime you pause in a sentence, but aren't done talking yet."

So I asked him to show me in writing.

I failed to consider that he writes how he speaks - rapidly, with no pauses from one sentance to another. Needless to say.... four long run-on sentences with no punctuation, a half-dozen commas, and another two sentences were the result of his labor.

Heh.
 
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Nobby, that reminds me of a funny but true anecdote I have to share:

Our third grader came home not long ago from school, explaining that he had learned how to use a comma. So I asked him, "when do you use one?"

He answered (fairly enough, I thought), "anytime you pause in a sentence, but aren't done talking yet."

So I asked him to show me in writing.

I failed to consider that he writes how he speaks - rapidly, with no pauses from one sentance to another. Needless to say.... four long run-on sentences with no punctuation, a half-dozen commas, and another two sentences were the result of his labor.

Heh.

At least his example was consistent with his definition....
 
I hate sentences without nouns or verbs. Really. And that rule about not ending a sentence with a preposition is something I've carried on about before.
 
lol! Loving this thread!

Has anyone read Steve Martin's book of short stories? ('Pure Drivel' methinks it's titled?) It has a very short story where, IIRC, all the punctuation goes on strike. The only full stop is at the very end of the piece... very effective & good fun.

Also, Lyn Struss(?) 'Eats Shoots and Leaves' has been turned into a children's picture book & it's absolutely delightful.

Re the punctuation inside inverted commas. I use a comma inside to indicate the speaker's pause - if it was a full stop, the speaker's attribution would be chopped into a stand-alone fragment. Seems common sense to me - and no editor has ever corrected me in my whole career... So, am I missing a trick here? Is there a rule I am unaware off?

Thanks in advance!

DeVega
 
It's to indicate that it is one sentence. With a period inside the quotation marks, it would look like two sentences and make much less sense.

Look at it with the period (grr, it's a full stop):

It's not the comma itself, I don't want a period full stop there either, it's the position of the comma I don't get.

“I've never found any negative or tragic ones," he says, preferring to...

would be

“I've never found any negative or tragic ones", he says, preferring to...

in my little brain.
 
Reminds me of a t-shirt I saw at the weekend, it simply said...


Your retarded.


Made me smile.
 
It's not the comma itself, I don't want a period full stop there either, it's the position of the comma I don't get.
“I've never found any negative or tragic ones," he says, preferring to...
would be
“I've never found any negative or tragic ones", he says, preferring to...
in my little brain.
I'm with wahrheit on this one. It makes more sense to put it outside the quotes.

A clearer example (clearer to me, anyway) would be:
Does that T-shirt really say "your retarded"?
It makes no sense to me to put the question mark inside the quotation marks, since it's not part of the quotation.
 
The comma inside/outside the quotes is one of those national quirks. The Americans put it inside, the British put it outside. The British also spell color wrong. :)
 
The comma inside/outside the quotes is one of those national quirks. The Americans put it inside, the British put it outside. The British also spell color wrong. :)

Thanks for the explanation. I'm having some excellent Andalusian olives right now, do you think Nick would like one of those?
 
I've recently become convinced that the whole comma-where-you-would-breathe approach is pretty useless, although it often happens that commas end up in those gaps.

I've found this exceptionally useful, especially the comma section.

http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node00.html


Also I thought that the issue of punctuation in or out of quotation marks depended on whether the punctuation was appropriate to the quote. I had no idea that it was a UK vs. US thing.
 

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