The Pam Reynolds Incident.. Redux

Skeptical Greg

Agave Wine Connoisseur
Skeptical Greg
Joined
Jul 1, 2002
Messages
20,735
Location
Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Having covered 11 pages and 400 posts, this was one of the more active discussions in the last few days.

We were presented with the following opinion, for our consideration:
Originally posted by Titus Rivas
As a non-debunker, I'm curious about how skeptics think they can deal with the so called Pam Reynolds Case. This is a relatively recent case of an Near Death Experience during brain surgery (to remove an aneurysm). In this case, the subject would have observed the procedure while her brain processes had been artificially stopped.
Click to expand...
c0rbin promptly responded:
Ummm...skeptically.
Click to expand...
And away we went.

Of course there were some tangents, and certainly some lapses into repetition, but the thrust of the skeptical side was:

" How were the NDE experiences of the subject, correlated with the time frame, in which the subject was in a clinically assessed condition of ' Brain -Dead "?

The contention of the presenters being, that the subjects
quote:
----------------------------
'remarkably accurate'
----------------------------
description of operating room procedures, that took place while she was ' flat-lined ', could not be reasonably believed, to have been garnered from any other source.

The conclusion arrived at, by those who held this particular NDE/OBE experience to be of significance, was that it seemed to bring strong evidence to support the position, that consciousness persists independantly of the brain in which it normaly seems to reside.

This was another situation where assessments such as 'remarkably accurate', was highly interpretive , depending upon one's perspective.

If you should choose to wade through the whole thread, you will find that we reached page ten before anyone was able to present, what seems to be an accurate account of what happened while Pam Reynolds was undergoing surgery..

This was revealed in this post:
Why Mr. Siqueira is probably right
...which included a well documented time line of what actually took place.

With this revelation, it was conceded that..
Pam Reynolds was not in a state of flat EEG when she observed details of the operation
Click to expand...
However, when I put the above statement back into context, it reads:
Originally posted by Titus Rivas
Why the Pam Reynolds' NDE is very important anyway.

Now that we have read (or at least deducted from reading the passages in question) that Pam Reynolds was not in a state of flat EEG when she observed details of the operation, we reach the question what aspects of the case should still be considered 'remarkable'.
Click to expand...
We have a case that was presented to us as ' remarkable ' because of A, B and C,; but now that A, B and C, have proven to be nebulous assumptions, we haven't managed to demote this event from the status of ' remarkable'.

And I must say, I find that to be remarkable.

In the end, should anyone care to follow the complete thread, you will find that the final revelations, amounted to what myself and others were postulating all along.
 
Diogenes,

The state of affairs you've summarized here to me represents one of the main problems I see with many of the debates on this forum. It seems to me that people would often rather do anything other than to find, read, and digest the best sources of data relating to the topic being debated. There's a tendency to rely on internet sources that could possibly be incomplete, inadequate, or even plain wrong. In the case of Pam Reynolds, one would think that those debating this topic would have made it their first order of business to acquire, one way or another, the Sabom book that has been held up as being a prime source of reporting on the Reynolds case. But at the end of the long Reynolds thread, unless I missed something, I'm not aware of anyone having actually held the Sabom book in his or her hands (although it was finally quoted extensively from emails).

Mike
 
Misrepresentation

Mikes is right that it is a good idea to always study the original sources. However, if a case is misrepresented on many websites (without correction on any other website), it is not very surprising that somebody trusts the information is probably correct. For me this has been quite a disappointing experience concerning the quality of some online information.

Anyway, intentional and unintentional misrepresentation is all too common, including on this thread I'm afraid. I suggest anyone who's really interested reads why I continue to consider the Pam Reynolds case remarkable and indeed probably paranormal. It is all there on the original thread. And it might be refreshing to see I really have my reasons for it.

Titus
 
Primary source

By the way, Julio Siqueira did hold Light and Death in his own hands.

Titus
 
Titus Rivas wrote:

"I suggest anyone who's really interested reads why I continue to consider the Pam Reynolds case remarkable and indeed probably paranormal." <snip>

Imagine transporting a working radio, complete with transmitted signal ready to be received, back in time two thousand years. Certainly that would appear to be “paranormal” to the unknowing minds of those people. But to you, it would not be anything “paranormal” because you would understand and comprehend the workings of the radio. If you attempted to convince the people hearing that radio that is was something other than “the Gods speaking, witchcraft, psychic ability, the paranormal” or what else they might conjure up as a reality in their day, you would be going against their beliefs. Actually, long before you had the chance to describe the workings of the radio, you probably would be attacked and killed as an “evil” person who came bearing this evil box that makes sounds. Considering what happened in those days, this scenario is not that far fetched.

But today, two thousand years later, the world as a whole has their “beliefs” also. The magic of a radio is not so “magical” today because we understand the mechanics of that radio. Transmitting a signal and re-generating the signal within the radio to be heard again is natural law and scientific. Nothing mystical or paranormal about it. In Pam Reynolds case, leaving the body while brain dead is also natural law and scientific. If people knew what matter really is as well as they understand the radio, they would not be mystified by such happenings. There is not one person who has ever died who has not undergone such a transition after leaving the body.

During the day we walk through invisible electrical radio waves, electrical waves sent from television stations, electrical speech waves lingering from past conversations heard a week ago, and invisible inert elements that exist on the top surface of the earth. We continually walk through a multitude of things that are HERE NOW that we cannot visibly see. They are merely out of our sensing range. There is another universe of invisible “matter” surrounding us every moment of the day. Had Pam Reynolds not been allowed to return to her body, the real Pam Reynolds would still be among us and there are MANY "DEAD" PEOPLE who are still here though their bodies are long gone.

Studying transcripts from a doctor’s office will not yield any answers. It eventually becomes a question of believing this person or that person. This does not study the cause behind such unexplained events, such as Pan Reynolds case. Those answers will come only when you fully understand the workings of this electrical universe and the truth pertaining to matter and what matter or substance really is, why it exists and what it does. This will provide the scientific basis needed today to understand such “paranormal” happenings. There are NO paranormal happenings. They are simply very scientific events that transcend the current knowledge of science today. Once a person understands the workings of this electrical thought-wave universe and that matter is nothing more than electrically conditioned light-waves of THOUGHT (not matter or substance as currently believed), “paranormal events” will be known for what they are. They are no more “paranormal, mystical or magical than our radios that are also controlled and governed by natural scientific law.

Take care, GLR
 
Vision of the future

Dear Gerald,

I largely agree with what you're saying. I just used the word paranormal in the sense of "inexpicable by normal or orthodox scientific theory".

I'm looking forward to a future whereincases like that of Pam Reynolds are fully integrated into a new science which accepts that life is not the end of the person.

Titus
 
Gerald, you can turn on a radio, a television, or a police band scanner and show that the "invisible energies" around us exist. THEN you can explain how they got there and how they work. You've got a long post there, but I fail to see any evidence for your central claim, that being that dead people are still all around us. For that matter, I have seen no evidence that any of the related claims (i.e. OBE's, talking to dead, telepathy, etc) hold any water whatsoever. Remember, FIRST you have to show that there is evidence that needs explaining, THEN you get to come up with a hypothesis to explain it.
 
Welcome Gerald!

Gerald said:
Studying transcripts from a doctor’s office will not yield any answers. It eventually becomes a question of believing this person or that person.
Click to expand...

In a nutshell, here is where you are going to butt heads with most skeptics. Hard experience has shown time and again that eyewitness testimony is unreliable. There is a good reason why it is virtually impossible to convict someone of a crime based only on an eyewitness. Even outside of deliberate deception, people drastically underestimate how much of our memory is really our imagination filling the gaps. Any cop knows that ten good, honest people who saw the same thing will tell ten different stories about it.

That's why we demand evidence.

Those answers will come only when you fully understand the workings of this electrical universe and the truth pertaining to matter and what matter or substance really is, why it exists and what it does.
Click to expand...


I worry about that word "truth", especially in this context where you seem to be implying that there is an absolute truth that comes from revelation, not investigation. Science avoids words like "truth" because it suggests a definitive end point that might not exist. Science builds progressively more accurate models of the universe, which are always considered provisional, subject to new observations.

Once a person understands the workings of this electrical thought-wave universe and that matter is nothing more than electrically conditioned light-waves of THOUGHT (not matter or substance as currently believed), “paranormal events” will be known for what they are.
Click to expand...

Presumably you "understand the workings of this electrical thought-wave universe", or you could not make such a definitive statement. What predictions does this theory make that current scientific models do not make? If this theory is better than current theories, then there should be some conditions where the standard theories make predictions that are observered to be innaccurate, while your theory makes predicitons that are observed to be accurate. What conditions are these?
 
FutileJester wrote:
“In a nutshell, here is where you are going to butt heads with most skeptics. Hard experience has shown time and again that eyewitness testimony is unreliable. There is a good reason why it is virtually impossible to convict someone of a crime based only on an eyewitness. Even outside of deliberate deception, people drastically underestimate how much of our memory is really our imagination filling the gaps. Any cop knows that ten good, honest people who saw the same thing will tell ten different stories about it.”

Yes, you are right concerning “eyewitness” testimony being flawed and unreliable at times. Yes, you can tell ten people a page worth of story and interview all ten people later and be amazed at how the story changed. We did this once where I worked so I am familiar with it. What you say is very true. The people are probably honest but time does things to some people’s memory. That being said, think about this a moment:

In my original post I mentioned a radio being taken back in time. Now imagine you and a friend both went back in time with that radio. Your friend with the radio travels to a far away city and shows hundreds of people what that little radio can do. Then he, with the radio, leaves the city for another city as you walk into the city that he just left. Everyone you approach is telling you about this amazing device that your friend just demonstrated to them and they tell you about it. They don’t know HOW it works, but you do. From the hundreds of personal accounts of the radio told to you, many of them are not going to be accurate or true. You will be hearing their impressions of an amazing device that they know nothing about beyond their first impressions. But because you KNOW how the radio works versus their not knowing, you can “filter” through what they tell you. You will KNOW what is accurate and what is not. But if you do not know the principle of how radios operate, you will be in the same boat as everyone else. Guesswork and speculation that will never provide true workable/scientific answers. Likewise:

When you finally know the simple cause that our universe is based upon and that all things must perpetually adhere to, you will be able to "filter" out what people write on this forum. Whether the topic be ESP, OBE, NDE ect., you can mentally "filter" through what conforms to actual working scientific CAUSE and that which does not.


“Science builds progressively more accurate models of the universe, which are always considered provisional, subject to new observations.”

Yes, theories that are cherished today become discarded archaic theories tomorrow. Why does this happen? Simple. Science still does not know the true cause behind the many effects that they study. If they knew the simple cause they would bypass all the “soon to be wrong theories” and base their ideas and opinions on what actually is. Briefly put, there is one principle that every theory, past or present, can be judged by. If such theories do not conform to this unknown principle, they will have to be discarded in favor of truth. For example, Albert Einstein gave the world his theory of Relativity in 1905 and it was hailed by one and all. But it really was not a true working theory for it was only half correct and did not obey the universal principle behind all things. It accounted for the generative half of the light-wave that increases centripetal motion but totally ignored the radiative half of the light-wave that decreases centripetal motion through increasingly fast centrifugal motion. Einstein's 1905 theory was only a half truth, not a completed truth. Einstein, as well as science today, study individual units but does not know the WHOLE. (Don’t get me wrong though, science has done great things for us).

“Presumably you "understand the workings of this electrical thought-wave universe", or you could not make such a definitive statement. What predictions does this theory make that current scientific models do not make? If this theory is better than current theories, then there should be some conditions where the standard theories make predictions that are observered to be innaccurate, while your theory makes predicitons that are observed to be accurate. What conditions are these?”

Science does not know how the universe works together as ONE WHOLE. Science bases their opinions and studies on many individual units or objects, not knowing that they are merely individual units that operate together as and within the ONE WHOLE. Think about the watch that we wear. It is composed of many different appearing pieces. Springs, batteries, gears, hands, etc. As different as each individual part may appear,
they all work together as ONE WHOLE. The watch manufacturer can accurately build a watch because of their knowledge of how all the individual part work together to create the end result of accurate time. If they understand the WHOLE, they then understand the CAUSE and purpose behind each individual part of the watch.

It would be impossible to write about the cause of all things in this forum’s short format but I will touch upon it here and maybe it will help. (In the proper time format, anyone could comprehend it).

The secret to fully comprehending the basis of this universe and the cause of all effects is in understanding the true nature of the electrical current. This is something that science admits not to knowing and that they greatly desire to know. Science knows that all things are expressed electrically and to finally know the why of this, would give them the “key” to great scientific knowledge. Science thinks that if the secret of electricity is ever fully known that it will be so complex that only a few people would ever comprehend it. That is not the case. A ten year old child can comprehend the mechanics or ONE PRINCIPLE that this universe is based upon and that all things must adhere to. It is not complex but absolutely simple. I base all my opinions upon only one idea or principle that is involved in all things. Everything conforms to only one idea or principle, which is the cause. I can demonstrate this principle to anyone in literally everything around me in my daily life, for it is omnipresent and everywhere.


Titus Rivas wrote:
“I largely agree with what you're saying. I just used the word paranormal in the sense of "inexpicable by normal or orthodox scientific theory".

“I'm looking forward to a future whereincases like that of Pam Reynolds are fully integrated into a new science which accepts that life is not the end of the person.”

I knew what YOU meant when you wrote that Titus. But most people do think of paranormal as something in another realm. The “new science” that you write of is the only science that will explain and prove such “paranormal” cases as being true and a reality. That new science is already here and is waiting for people to become aware of. It is based on the CAUSE behind the many EFFECTS that confound us. To study cause takes a person straight to the source where they can then understand the many effects.

JSFolk wrote:
“You've got a long post there, but I fail to see any evidence for your central claim, that being that dead people are still all around us. For that matter, I have seen no evidence that any of the related claims (i.e. OBE's, talking to dead, telepathy, etc) hold any water whatsoever. Remember, FIRST you have to show that there is evidence that needs explaining, THEN you get to come up with a hypothesis to explain it.”

Sorry for the long post (and this one). I make the claim that “dead people are still all around us” because I know the CAUSE behind life and death and what life and death really are and am not limited to only the effects that I am seeing. I have had many telepathic events in my life. But that is just me. Usually people that do not believe in such things have never experienced such happenings for themselves. But if and when they do, even though they might not be able to scientifically explain them or fully believe in telepathy, it will make them wonder and possibly begin searching for answers. In my own personal life I have had so many things happen out of the ordinary that it set me on a search for answers. Eventually I found the answers and the cause behind many of the “paranormal” happenings that are discussed in this forum.

Science knows so little about the subject of telepathy that it uses the phrase “Extra Sensory Perception” or ESP. That term is not at all correct but the term Inner Sensory Perception (ISP) is. It is not something “extra” that some people may or may not have. All people have this ability but it is not fully developed. And because this new human faculty is not fully developed yet, we can not just “turn it on” when we want to. The new science that I have learned has slowly increased my ISP range where I experience various forms of it throughout the week. We think it is just the ability to read another person’s mind but it actually goes far beyond that. You would be amazed at some of the things you can become aware of as it increases. But these are just my stories or personal happenings. I was once amazed at such things when they occurred but now, since I am aware of their CAUSE, I am no longer amazed or surprised. I fully expect such things when they happen throughout the week. If you do not believe in the idea of telepathy, I wouldn’t blame you. It is still so new to the human race. But if you knew the CAUSE behind the things that are questioned at this forum, you would probably think very differently. But not to believe? I can sure see why! Yet, once actual working knowledge of the simple cause behind all things is made known and is no longer a hidden secret, faith or belief falls to the wayside anyway, for they are no longer needed.

Sorry for the long post but I tried to answer a number of post in this one letter.
 
O.K. Gerald , Why can't you actually share some of this wonderful insight you have obtained.. ( other than to insist ' you have it '...)

Let me guess.. " Once you have obtained something like this ' higher plain ', that you have become aware of, petty, worldy concerns like the JREF Million, are of no interest to you.. ( even though such a sum, could obviously be put to some worthwhile use, that wouldnt' have to be selfish indulgence ).. "

Or maybe .. " Such knowledge is useless, unless it is obtained through the same form of revellation by which you aquired it .. "

P.S.. Why are you hanging out in " General Skepticism and The Paranormal "? Shouldn't you be over in " Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology "?
 
I make the claim that “dead people are still all around us” because I know the CAUSE behind life and death and what life and death really are and am not limited to only the effects that I am seeing.
Click to expand...

Ok, you have made a claim, you even used the word 'claim' - now back up your extraordinary claim with some extraordinary evidence. And saying "I just know" does not count.
 
Diogenes wrote:

Let me guess.. " Once you have obtained something like this ' higher plain ', that you have become aware of, petty, worldy concerns like the JREF Million, are of no interest to you.. ( even though such a sum, could obviously be put to some worthwhile use, that wouldnt' have to be selfish indulgence ).. "

P.S.. Why are you hanging out in " General Skepticism and The Paranormal "? Shouldn't you be over in " Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology "?


I’m sorry if my posts seem to offend you in some way. That certainly is not my intent. Please re-read my post and you will find that I wrote in essence that “You have it also”, not just me. I have simply learned the science that opens the doors to understanding and explaining such “paranormal” events as a reality.

You write of “JREF Million” and I assume that refers to one of the categories to choose from at the main menu at this forum. I haven’t read it but imagine there is probably some “prize” involved? If this is so, no, I really wouldn’t be that interested. It is strange but my only great desire through the years has been to learn, and money cannot buy that. I like money but I really can’t think of anything I need at the moment. (I could use a new motorcycle though).

Why I’m “hanging out” at this forum? I just happened to stumble across it a while back and enjoy reading some of the posts. “Shouldn’t I be over in Science, mathematics, Medicine and Technology?” NO!!!! What do they have to offer over what you and others discuss here? You and the other people who come to sites such as this one are VERY CLOSE to understanding what general science will take many years to know. People like you and others visiting this site are further ahead than much of the general science community. You might or might not think this, but you are. I offer an opinion on topics brought up at this forum only to help understand the mysterious things that confront us.

You wrote: “Or maybe .. " Such knowledge is useless, unless it is obtained through the same form of revellation by which you aquired it .. "

No, that is not it. Knowledge that I am referring to is something that has been totally overlooked by science, religion and those who desire answers to their many deep questions. Something so simple that general science would not give it one passing thought.

As I have wrote before, even a ten year old child can comprehend the cause behind all things for it is based on tremendous simplicity that has only been overlooked. If such knowledge is actually possible, could it be taught? Yes. I have never been the “sharpest knife in the door” and once the foundation of this knowledge is learned, I am sure people would surpass anything that I have since learned. To lay the foundation or ground work to comprehending such knew knowledge would probably take a few hours. It might differ from person to person but I honestly think people would comprehend it. To do this would require about thirty or so examples of it in things around us. Great knowledge is already HERE and it is only waiting your awareness of it and how to tap into it. There is no “revelation” or secret guru to meet. It is only the awareness of a principle that is within all things, something that you are probably not currently aware of.

Diogenes wrote:

“O.K. Gerald , Why can't you actually share some of this wonderful insight you have obtained.. ( other than to insist ' you have it '...)”

What do you want to know? I have tried to answer any questions as honestly as humanly possible.

I am not sure what you mean when you write “other to insist ‘ you have it”. Does this mean new knowledge or ESP ability? As far as having new knowledge, yes I do. And the byproduct of this knowledge is that it opens the door to ESP related experiences. (ESP is really not correct so for here on out I’ll just refer to it as ISP). I’ll be honest. I have had ISP experiences so many times that I really don’t give too much thought about them. Anyone can experience them and more people than myself have. All I know is that the science that I have learned has increased them through the years. And in ways I had never before thought about. The only difference is that now I understand what is causing them much better.

Have you ever had what some people call “coincidence” happenings? I had a very strange one the other day that almost went unnoticed. As odd as it was, the science that I have learned helped me to understand why it happened. Most people call these things a “coincidence” but they really are not. There is a cause for them if you have ever had them. Let me know if you want me to post it and I’ll try to explain it. That might help you understand all that I have since wrote. Another long letter and I’m sorry again. Take care for now.
 
Starrman wrote:

"Ok, you have made a claim, you even used the word 'claim' - now back up your extraordinary claim with some extraordinary evidence. And saying "I just know" does not count."

There is a way to write to someone at a forum and be civil at the same time, but the above message is not one of those ways. Just think of me as a person who deserves a little respect. Everybody deserves that. But to your post:

I wasn't going to say "I just know". My desire is for other people to also know but that requires a certain amount of learning doesn't it? Even if I ask you to prove that "we breathe oxygen", wouldn't that take some time for you to prove it? Wouldn't I have to be somewhat commited to learning from what you had to say regarding it? Sure it would.

What you ask is much like a student telling his teacher that "I don't want to know 1 + 1, I want to know something more important". The teacher knows full well that the student can comprehend the most complex appearing equations but must first understand the simple equations. This builds the needed comprehension required to understand the difficult equations.

To understand what happens after death requires a "build up" of knowledge that lays the ground work to finally understanding the more complex appearing question of what happens to us. That takes time to do. I personally think anyone could be taught enough in about a three hour period (in person) that such things as reincarnation, NDE's, OBE's and other (even more important) unknown topics could come within their range of knowing. It is not difficult but does take time.

Do you have the time? If I asked you to prove that we breathe oxygen and desired an answer, I would have to give you the needed time to prove it wouldn't I? If you said, "I just know" such an answer wouldn't do me much good would it?

Let me know.
 
The Scientific Time-Traveling Radio . . . OF THE DEAD!

Um, Gerald, you seem to really like that whole "people 1000 years ago wouldn't know how a radio worked; it would be magic to them" thing, so let me ask you:

Are you from the future, and did you bring a back a radio-like device that can detect the souls or energy or waves or vibrations or aura or ghost or particles or Timecube or spirits of people who are dead?

If you are not from the future, and you do not have this device, how do you have this knowledge?
 
I have an ISP experience every time I visit this board (I think Comcast is providing it this week).;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom