Cont: The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread Part 4

[marting]

"Age Discrimination" is a funny term to use there. I understand what they mean of course, but it's a virus; it doesn't discriminate. It's just that younger, healthier bodies are generally better prepared to survive it.

Headline writers do like clickbait.

Seasonal influenza and many other diseases have a similar age gradient though not quite as pronounced as Covid-19.

Continued from here.

Posted By: zooterkin

 

[The Atheist]

You think you should open up, because one shot is enough, but not until the adults have had boosters?

The current lockdown is costing the country over a billion dollars a week. The scales have swung towards moving away from that and onto mitigation while opening the economy up.

And it's not adults needing boosters, it's old people. I'd made that quite clear.

All high-risk groups have got much higher double shot rates than other people.

Totally contradictory!

Nope. You just aren't reading it properly, as evinced by your continually making statements that haven't been suggested, and have nothing to do with the thread.

And yes, children can spread the virus so excluding them from the figures of total vaccinated means you are relying on misleading figures.

They aren't going to be vaccinated, so there's little point in including them.

And that's another of the points that have never been made - nobody's suggesting kids don't get it. They're very rarely harmed, and vaccines may not be approved for kids; and until they are, including them would be the misleading part.

 

[angrysoba]

The current lockdown is costing the country over a billion dollars a week. The scales have swung towards moving away from that and onto mitigation while opening the economy up.

The numbers are going down all the time. Then if you open up when you have zero infections, you can do so far more than other countries.

That makes perfect sense, and would give NZ more time to get completely vaccinated as opposed to the low rate it is now.

Again, you criticize the New Zealand government for letting the virus in, yet you also claim it cannot be stopped from getting in, and have claimed you cannot stamp out Delta, yet the NZG seem to be doing a good job of getting back to zero from what I can see.

They aren't going to be vaccinated, so there's little point in including them.
And that's another of the points that have never been made - nobody's suggesting kids don't get it. They're very rarely harmed, and vaccines may not be approved for kids; and until they are, including them would be the misleading part.

It doesn't matter if they are going to be vaccinated or not. What matters is whether they can transmit. Again, it is weird that you think something so obvious is now meaningless.

 

[dann]

You're right - it's actually 77% have had one dose. Sorry, I wasn't quite up to date.

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work...tics/covid-19-vaccine-data#total-vaccinations

Your 77% is what is considered to be 65% in most countries. And only 37% of the population (unlike the percentage of those eligible for vaccination) is fully vaccinated. That is way too early to reopen.

 

[dann]

First thought, 13% lung function is dire. A sniffle and they would be dead! Yes a coincidence. Pneumonia is due to an infection, Pfizer is an mRNA virus it does not cause an infection.

"A sniffle and they could be dead" makes me think that a case of side effects just a little worse than usual, i.e. when people with ordinary lung function need to lie down for a day or two and then are up and about again, may be enough to kill somebody like that.

 

[Jono]

I was sent a link to a youtube vid of a recent event called 'Press Conference: Death by Vaccination. Undeclared components of the COVID-19 vaccines'.

Anyone else checked it or heard about it? An article about the press conference is found here.

In their autopsies, the scientists went into great detail and used the latest technology. This is because it is the only way to link the vaccines, Burkhard said in the introduction.

Specifically, Prof. Dr. Burkhard said:

“Among what I am showing you, there are many things I have seen for the first time. Some things I can’t name yet because I’m still looking for names for them. We’re doing a peer review here with a lot of colleagues.”

“Severe effects are probably misdiagnosed by many pathologists as myocardial infarction.
“Lymphocyte collections are found everywhere”.

In all cases, the immune system has been attacked. Some diagnoses are difficult and often misinterpreted.

This press conference will give further impetus to the arguments of the opponents of vaccination. On the other hand, the pharmaceutical companies involved must urgently answer the questions posed by these top scientists, they say.

The results of the investigation have led to legal and political demands, for example, for the immediate collection of information by the authorities in order to be able to assess the health risk posed to the population by the Covid-19 vaccines.

For example, early signals of impaired fertility in vaccinated individuals can be examined by consulting IVF registries. Through the cancer registry, insights can be gained into the development of cancer due to the genetic modifications of the viral RNA. Suspension of Covid-19 vaccination should be considered, the researchers say.

Until then, everyone should ask themselves whether they are taking the risk of such a “vaccination” and exposing their immune system to this danger, they warn.

 

[dann]

Propaganda, Jono!
A lot of damage caused by vaccines is implied in sentences like, "early signals of impaired fertility in vaccinated individuals can be examined" or "insights can be gained into the development of cancer."
Yes, it can be examined and it should be examined, so please do so instead of implying a risk when you haven't actually found any.
It is obviously meant to scare people without making any specific claims.

 

[The Atheist]

The numbers are going down all the time. Then if you open up when you have zero infections, you can do so far more than other countries.

I seriously doubt we will ever get to zero infections again.

We're now six weeks into lockdown and while the numbers are low, we aren't even close to eradication.

Again, you criticize the New Zealand government for letting the virus in, yet you also claim it cannot be stopped from getting in,...

And I'm right on both counts. The current system the government is using is doomed to fail. Lots of their own experts are on that page as well. They screwed up by letting it in, and they've done nothing to remove the chances of getting across the border again.

... and have claimed you cannot stamp out Delta, yet the NZG seem to be doing a good job of getting back to zero from what I can see.

That's because you're looking at limited information. We currently have several clusters not linked to the original clusters, and there are cases popping up daily in unexpected locations. What's happening at the moment is the harshness of the lockdown is keeping it at bay, but will not eradicate it. We are in the identical position to Victoria, which is now at 1000 cases a day.

Your 77% is what is considered to be 65% in most countries. And only 37% of the population (unlike the percentage of those eligible for vaccination) is fully vaccinated. That is way too early to reopen.

I did note that re-opening is not throwing everything out like UK - that would clearly be a disaster. What we need to do is get as many people as possible back to work, while using other mitigation measures - masks, no crowds, distancing, etc.

 

[The Atheist]

An unwanted side-effect of the pandemic: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment...nmental-problem-emerges-amid-covid19-pandemic

 

[marting]

John Campbell has been flogging vaccine injection aspiration for quite a while. Evidence he's right pops up in a new paper in Clinical Infectious Diseases. Aspiration is an injection technique to reduce the risk of accidently injecting into a blood vessel.

Intravenous Injection of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) mRNA Vaccine Can Induce Acute Myopericarditis in Mouse Model
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927

Very complete study where they compared IM v IV results in mice.

RESULTS
Intravenous SARS-CoV-2 mRNA Vaccine Administration Induced Grossly Visible Pathology in Heart

They also observed increased severity of effects after the second dose much as observed in the rare instances of myocarditis after vaccination.

Eric Topol links to John's discussion which takes to task CDC WHO Green Book etc. recommendations not to aspirate.
https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1442525607426867200

 

[Samson]

Pfizer safe for 5 to 11s

This should be the only global story right now, and the speediest way to get herd immunity in the world population.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/09/28/world/covid-coronavirus-vaccine#pfizer-vaccine-kids

 

[The Atheist]

I seriously doubt we will ever get to zero infections again.

And proven right again just now, as the 1 pm update records 45 new cases today.

Melbourne here we come!

(Not a good thing)

 

[Puppycow]

This is a YouTube channel I recently came across, and he seems to a no-nonsense guy who tries to present just the facts and stick to that without political commentary or stuff that might alienate some people who are not disposed to listen to people who they consider to be on the opposite political side.



Title of the video:
COVID Transmission | Do vaccinated transmit as much as unvaccinated?

He discussed recent studies that bear on that question. (Bottom line is that the best currently available evidence says no, the vaccinated do not transmit as much as unvaccinated.)

Here is the video description and links to the studies:

When it comes to COVID Transmission to vaccinated individuals really transmit as much is unvaccinated? i will review several studies that answer this question one from Singapore and one from the Netherlands. They looked at vaccine breakthrough infections and compared viral loads to look at COVID transmission.

Mayo Clinic study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34401884/


UK study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.18.21262237v1


Singapore study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1


Netherlands study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1.full.pdf

 

[dann]

I seriously doubt we will ever get to zero infections again.

And proven right again just now, as the 1 pm update records 45 new cases today.

Melbourne here we come!

(Not a good thing)

Too bad. NZ was so close: Daily new confirmed COVID-19 cases
But to be expected when restrictions are loosened too soon:

Two of the country's leading epidemiologist says today's high Covid-19 case numbers are simply the result of Auckland moving down alert levels which has seen more contact between people.
Covid 19 Delta outbreak: 'I would expect this number to continue,' Professor Baker says of 45 cases (NZ Herald, Sep 29, 2021)

 

[lomiller]

And proven right again just now, as the 1 pm update records 45 new cases today.

Melbourne here we come!

(Not a good thing)

It's fine if NZ doesn't get to zero again. The goal now should be to keep the case count from exploding before get ~85% of the population fully vaccinated. At it's current vaccination rates and as transmissible as delta is New Zeeland could be in the thousands of cases per day 4-6 weeks from now if it's not careful.

 

[The Atheist]

But to be expected when restrictions are loosened too soon:

When 5 weeks of strict lockdown had failed, there was no choice but to get people working again.

It's fine if NZ doesn't get to zero again. The goal now should be to keep the case count from exploding before get ~85% of the population fully vaccinated. At it's current vaccination rates and as transmissible as delta is New Zeeland could be in the thousands of cases per day 4-6 weeks from now if it's not careful.

That's the page I'm on - keep people working, but with mitigation tactics in place.

 

[Planigale]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13612229#post13612229

An excellent article in NyMag's Intelligencer on rather extreme age skew of Covid-19. We've touched on it from time to time here but it's worth a read. In particular since the media seems to give a lot of coverage to the relatively rare younger person that dies of Covid-19. The Public Continues to Underestimate COVID’s Age Discrimination https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021...imination.html

But in small type, King County included some other data that paint what seems at first blush like a very different picture: Fully 25 percent of deaths were among vaccinated people, the county reported. How can this be? If the vaccines are so effective that they reduce mortality 42 times over, how could the vaccinated account for such a large proportion of the deaths? The answer is actually quite simple: the overwhelming age skew of the disease, which — in the time of vaccines, breakthrough cases, and Delta — we are still, as a public, hugely underestimating and which is governing the post-*vaccine pandemic landscape as clearly as it did the pre-vaccine landscape.

To comment on this. I think it is more than the increased rate of co-morbidities. The presence of a co-morbididty is lesson a risk than age. There is an almost linear increase in risk from childhood. This is unusual, usually there is a J shape curve, increased risk in young infants, flat in adolescence and young adulthood then accelerating away in old age.

The very constant linear relationship implies there is something that changes with age in a consistent manner. One explanation is the viral receptor expression (ACE2) in the lung rises with age.

 

[marting]

When 5 weeks of strict lockdown had failed, there was no choice but to get people working again.

That's the page I'm on - keep people working, but with mitigation tactics in place.

Me too.

First get people vaccinated as much as possible. Then mitigation as needed such that regular medical procedures can be done. Between vaccination and those already recovered, most of the damage in the USA is behind us and future damage, as the bug becomes totally endemic where most infections are re-infections or vax breakthroughs, will be similar to influenza and also likely seasonal. At that point NPIs will fade away. This has already happened in may places This is/was pretty much the plan in most of Europe and lots of others like Singapore. The latter, similar to NZ, is now trying to modulate NPIs as it transitions to endemic from zero Covid. Will take them a bit of time because Delta is so damned infectious that case rates are soaring even with 80% vaxxed but virtually no prior recovered. About half the new cases are in vaxxed. They are generally mild or asymptomatic. The other half is getting clobbered. So they are temporarily increasing NPIs to limit hospitalization.

 

[sphenisc]

https://www.rferl.org/a/day-by-day-how-the-coronavirus-spread/30552844.html

Time for a reminder of how we got where we are today...

 

[The Atheist]

https://www.rferl.org/a/day-by-day-how-the-coronavirus-spread/30552844.html

Time for a reminder of how we got where we are today...

Even better than that is this entire thread. It's been ahead of the game almost the entire way. Note your video starts two days before this thread labelled it as a global pandemic, when there were about six cases outside of China.

I need to get myself organised and copy all of it as a matter of record.

If there's a more complete, dad-by-day (and even hour by hour, in the early stages) internet record of the pandemic, I'd love to know where it is.