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The medieval execution tradition

Oliver

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
17,396
I just read the George W. Bush mocks a death row inmate
thread and this question came into my mind:

The christan community in america is pretty large in america
and they´re all good obedient and honest people. What i don't
understand is this:

How is it possible to follow the "You shall not murder" rule
and at the same time support executions?


A misinterpretation of the "Ten Commandments" or what´s
their excuse? :boggled:


PS: I know it´s partly a religious question, but also a political and
social one - and i would like to hear the non religious opinions, too.
 
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ah but the commandment is "thou shalt not kill" - so "thou shalt support other people killing" is technically ok :)
 
I just read the George W. Bush mocks a death row inmate [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld/misc/new_window.gif[/qimg]
thread and this question came into my mind:

The christan community in america is pretty large in america
and they´re all good obedient and honest people. What i don't
understand is this:

How is it possible to follow the "You shall not murder" rule
and at the same time support executions?


A misinterpretation of the "Ten Commandments" or what´s
their excuse? :boggled:


PS: I know it´s partly a religious question, but also a political and
social one - and i would like to hear the non religious opinions, too.

First off, I think it's an exaggeration to say "they're all good obedient and honest people".

But, that aside, it's the difference between killing and murdering. It's OK to kill someone if it's justifiable. It's not OK to murder someone.

Many Christians are against the death penalty of course, and feel it's not OK to kill anyone ever. Turn the other cheek and all that.

The other angle is that it's OK for the Government to kill, because it's the Government. So legal executions are OK.

I think that covers most of the main Christian views on the subject. Of course if you look around long/hard enough, your likely to find obscure groups of Christians that believe about any thing you can imagine.
 
I do seem to recall that the Catholic Church, and all the main UK christian protestant denominations, have said that judicial execution is contrary to Christian teaching. But I'd have to look for the link.
 
First off, I think it's an exaggeration to say "they're all good obedient and honest people".

But, that aside, it's the difference between killing and murdering. It's OK to kill someone if it's justifiable. It's not OK to murder someone.

Many Christians are against the death penalty of course, and feel it's not OK to kill anyone ever. Turn the other cheek and all that.

The other angle is that it's OK for the Government to kill, because it's the Government. So legal executions are OK.

I think that covers most of the main Christian views on the subject. Of course if you look around long/hard enough, your likely to find obscure groups of Christians that believe about any thing you can imagine.

Thanks for your enlightening reply, This Guy. As being christian, too,
the killing/murder argument contradicts. Murder someone who murdered
someone is still murder in terms of the Ten Commandments. So i guess
it must be a misinterpretation and because this tradition is still used,
it makes me wonder why the majority of voters, who are christians,
didn´t abolished the executions in the meantime.
 
VATICAN CITY, (Reuters) - The Vatican on Saturday condemned the execution of Saddam Hussein as a "tragic" event and warned that it risked fomenting a spirit of vendetta and sowing fresh violence in Iraq.

"A capital punishment is always tragic news, a reason for sadness, even if it deals with a person who was guilty of grave crimes," said Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi.

"The position of the Church (against capital punishment) has been restated often," he said.

The Catholic Church teaches that capital punishment today is unjustifiable because modern society has developed ways of protecting society from further crimes by the guilty party and that because only God can end a life.

http://obiakpere.blogspot.com/2007/01/vatican-condemns-saddam-execution.html

the catholics aren't big on the death penalty....

and neither is the World Council of Churches....

At the execution of Saddam Hussein, the World Council of Churches' General Secretary issued a statement asking God to grant the nation of Iraq "the mercy, justice and compassion that it has long been denied" and "an end to fear and death that marked Saddam Hussein’s rule and that continue now".

"We pray that those who hold power in Iraq now and in the future will create a new heritage of government for its people," said the Rev. Dr. Samuel Kobia. "May Iraq’s leaders pursue reconciliation and mutual respect among all its communities."

While holding a leader responsible for his crimes is significant, Kobia said, "each taking of a person’s life is a part of a larger tragedy and nowhere is this more apparent than in a land of daily killings". The WCC is opposed to the death penalty.

What is the World Council of Churches?
The World Council of Churches (WCC) is the broadest and most inclusive among the many organized expressions of the modern ecumenical movement, a movement whose goal is Christian unity.

The WCC brings together more than 340 churches, denominations and church fellowships in over 100 countries and territories throughout the world, representing some 550 million Christians and including most of the world's Orthodox churches, scores of denominations from such historic traditions of the Protestant Reformation as Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist and Reformed, as well as many united and independent churches.
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/news/ne...s/article/1637/at-the-news-of-saddam-hus.html

and neither is the archbishop of canterbury...

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams weighed in during a BBC interview before the execution:

I'm not a believer in the death penalty as a general principle. He's being tried under a jurisdiction which has the death penalty; he seems to be undoubtedly guilty of what he's been charged with but I think I'd have to separate out the morality of the death penalty from 'should Saddam Hussein be hanged?', because I don't believe in the death penalty.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/januaryweb-only/001-21.0.html
 
One would have foolishly thought that the risk of accidentally killing an innocent man would be enough to put anyone off capital punishment, but there you go.

A friend of mine was formerly Chief Inspector of Prisons in Scotland. We onece discussed this; he said that the only purpose of capital punishment was for deterrent value, but there was no evidence that this was significant enought to warrant implementation. In fact he reckoned it would only ever be a detterent if it was (a) as horrible as possible and (b) televised.

I hasten to add that Clive is an ardent opponent of capital and corporal punishment, despite having an army background. He famoulsy made the front page of Scotland's biggest broadsheet with the headline "Incompetent? The Prison Service Should Open a Bloody Morgue!" when there was yet another prison suicide.
 
Mhmm, it´s a pretty contriversial issue if we take different
opinions about this into account. I´m still talking about the
Ten Commandments here. "You shall not murder" is pretty
unmistakable, beside the Vaticans or other opinions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment

Christianity

Although some interpret that John 8:7 of the Bible condemns the death penalty, Christian positions, as on many social issues, vary. The promulgator of Christianity, Jesus of Nazareth, was executed by crucifixion, and that method of execution became a symbol for Christianity (see Passion (Christianity)). Furthermore, numerous Catholic saints have been martyred by usage of the death penalty.
The Roman Catholic Church traditionally accepted capital punishment as per the theology of Thomas Aquinas (who accepted the death penalty as a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as the means of vengeance). Under the pontificate of Pope John Paul II, this position was refined. His encyclical Evangelium Vitae denounced abortion, capital punishment, and euthanasia as murder (see Consistent Life Ethic). The Roman Catholic Church holds that the death penalty is no longer necessary if it can be replaced by incarceration.[15] The Catechism of the Catholic Church says "If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person".
The Lambeth Conference of Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty in 1988. In Protestantism, both Martin Luther and John Calvin followed the traditional reasoning in favor of capital punishment, and the Augsburg Confession explicitly defends it; the Mennonites and Friends, among other, smaller groups, opposed it. Some Protestant groups have cited Genesis 9:5-6, Romans 13:3-4, and Leviticus 20:1-27 as the basis for permitting the death penalty [7][8]. Both proponents and opponents derive their own stance from the Bible itself. Until recently, however, the retentionist position was held by all but a relatively few groups.
The United Methodist Church, along with other Methodist churches, also condemns capital punishment, saying that it cannot accept retribution or social vengeance as a reason for taking human life.[16] The Church also holds that the death penalty falls unfairly and unequally upon marginalized persons including the poor, the uneducated, ethnic and religious minorities, and persons with mental and emotional illnesses.[17] The General Conference of the United Methodist Church calls for its bishops to uphold opposition to capital punishment and for governments to enact an immediate moratorium on carrying out the death penalty sentence.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (colloquially known as Mormons) hold a neutral position on the death penalty.
The Rosicrucian Fellowship and many other Christian esoteric schools condemns the capital punishment in all circumstances.
 
Actually, in the Old Testament, the original language used for the command very clearly stipulates that it is referring to "murder", not "killing". The argument that capital offense falls under the category of "murder" does not make sense in light of the numerous O.T. laws which very explicitly call for capital punishment for those who have broken various laws.

Beyond that, when the Israelites conquered a neighboring country, and held the people captive, defeated, God commanded the Israelites to kill, in cold blood, all the males (adult and child), and all the females who were not virgins (including pregnant women); and to take the remaining females as slaves.

So it is very, very, very clear that, at least in terms of the Old Testament, "Thou shalt not kill" does not refer to capital punishment, killing of enemies as a result of war, etc.

The argument I generally hear for this is that such executions should not be committed as the act of an individual (which is murder), but rather as the act of a state (which has a right to determine guilt or innocence, and inflict the death penalty). Thus, if you break laws for which capital punishment is the penalty, the state has the right to declare that, but no individual has that right.

I am not saying that I believe in any of this (I'm an atheist), but that is what the Old Testament says; if you want to argue that "Do not kill" means that capital punishment is wrong, then you have to argue that God broke his own laws when he commanded that millions upon millions of people be put to the sword (or stoned to death) for crimes such as adultery and idol worship, as well as for being an enemy of Israel.

Now, the New Testament does, for the most part, teach a new mode of thinking. Jesus explicitly states that the "old" principle of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is now dead; and that forgiveness and love are the "new" paradigms. Jesus does not, however, explicitly state that capital punishment should be stopped, or that it is wrong in all instances, so there are inevitably those Christians who argue that the Bible supports capital punishment, and those Christians who argue that the Bible condemns capital punishment.

As with sooooooo many issues related to Christian theology, it doesn't matter what you believe, you can pretty much find verses somewhere that will support it. I guess that whoever shouts their verses the loudest wins.
 
This could lead into a whole argument about the relative merits of Old and New Testaments. as I once heard a Minister point out about the former, none of us are rushing to sacrifice our children.

But even if we set religion to the side, one the biggest problems (for me, at least) is the risk that an innocent man is executed - and there is compelling post-execution evidence of some wrongful convictions in the US.

Surely it is better that 10 guily people go free (or at least gaol, for a very long time) than one innocent person is wrongly killed?
 
Actually, in the Old Testament, the original language used for the command very clearly stipulates that it is referring to "murder", not "killing". The argument that capital offense falls under the category of "murder" does not make sense in light of the numerous O.T. laws which very explicitly call for capital punishment for those who have broken various laws.

Beyond that, when the Israelites conquered a neighboring country, and held the people captive, defeated, God commanded the Israelites to kill, in cold blood, all the males (adult and child), and all the females who were not virgins (including pregnant women); and to take the remaining females as slaves.

So it is very, very, very clear that, at least in terms of the Old Testament, "Thou shalt not kill" does not refer to capital punishment, killing of enemies as a result of war, etc.

The argument I generally hear for this is that such executions should not be committed as the act of an individual (which is murder), but rather as the act of a state (which has a right to determine guilt or innocence, and inflict the death penalty). Thus, if you break laws for which capital punishment is the penalty, the state has the right to declare that, but no individual has that right.

I am not saying that I believe in any of this (I'm an atheist), but that is what the Old Testament says; if you want to argue that "Do not kill" means that capital punishment is wrong, then you have to argue that God broke his own laws when he commanded that millions upon millions of people be put to the sword (or stoned to death) for crimes such as adultery and idol worship, as well as for being an enemy of Israel.

Now, the New Testament does, for the most part, teach a new mode of thinking. Jesus explicitly states that the "old" principle of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is now dead; and that forgiveness and love are the "new" paradigms. Jesus does not, however, explicitly state that capital punishment should be stopped, or that it is wrong in all instances, so there are inevitably those Christians who argue that the Bible supports capital punishment, and those Christians who argue that the Bible condemns capital punishment.

As with sooooooo many issues related to Christian theology, it doesn't matter what you believe, you can pretty much find verses somewhere that will support it. I guess that whoever shouts their verses the loudest wins.


I guess my problem is the difference between murder, killing
and murder committed by government. The argument you hear
often is bullcrap because i also could say that the Holocaust
was no murder because it was "a act of state". :boggled:

Frankly - personally i´m no Bible Freak at all - especially because
it´s pretty confusing, contradicting and out of date - but the ten
commandments are pretty wisely and i thought it´s obeyed by all
Christians. But maybe this differs in other countries.
 
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*snip*Surely it is better that 10 guily people go free (or at least gaol, for a very long time) than one innocent person is wrongly killed?

I don´t think so - the wisest way would be to withhold executions
if there are doubts concerning guiltiness. The same goes to people
who change their mind during imprisonment. To let people like the
terminator decide in the last instance is like giving a chimp a gun. :covereyes
 
I guess my problem is the difference between murder, killing
and murder committed by government. The argument you here
often is bullcrap because i also could say that the Holocaust
was no murder because it was "a act of state". :boggled:

Frankly - personally i´m no Bible Freak at all - especially because
it´s pretty confusing, contradicting and out of date - but the ten
commandments are pretty wisely and i thought it´s obeyed by all
Christians. But maybe this differs in other countries.
The "argument I'm offering" is based plain and simple on what the Bible says. God clearly states crimes for which the penalty is death; and God clearly gives the state the power to impose such sentences. I guess you could argue that the state doesn't have the right to impose capital punishment for crimes OTHER than those mandated by god, but quite frankly even with that limitation, god stipulated an awful lot of crimes for which you could be executed.

How you want to interpret it personally is, of course, entirely up to you; I am only saying what the Bible says on the topic, and the Old Testament is pretty damn liberal in its application of capital punishment, for many more crimes than we would use it today.

I personally am opposed to capital punishment; but it has never made any sense to me for someone to first decide their beliefs, and then try to twist the Bible to say what they think it should say. You have your beliefs, and that's great...but it clearly is not what the Old Testament teaches in regards to "Do Not Kill".
 
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How you want to interpret it personally is, of course, entirely up to you; I am only saying what the Bible says on the topic, and the Old Testament is pretty damn liberal in its application of capital punishment, for many more crimes than we would use it today.

I personally am opposed to capital punishment; but it has never made any sense to me for someone to first decide their beliefs, and then try to twist the Bible to say what they think it should say. You have your beliefs, and that's great...but it clearly is not what the Old Testament teaches in regards to "Do Not Kill".

Don´t get me wrong here. I appreciate your information, too - and as
you stated: You´re an Atheist - but i hoped to hear a statement of an
american christian who does support the capital punishments - to clear
this up concerning the commandments. :)
 
Thanks for your enlightening reply, This Guy. As being christian, too,
the killing/murder argument contradicts. Murder someone who murdered
someone is still murder in terms of the Ten Commandments. So i guess
it must be a misinterpretation and because this tradition is still used,
it makes me wonder why the majority of voters, who are christians,
didn´t abolished the executions in the meantime.


You better read your bible sometime.

Its cherrypicking to the extreme to think christianity is against killing in any way shape or form

The bible lists all sorts of crap you need to be killed for
 
You better read your bible sometime.

Its cherrypicking to the extreme to think christianity is against killing in any way shape or form

The bible lists all sorts of crap you need to be killed for

I know this, too - and it´s exactly what i said:

Frankly - personally i´m no Bible Freak at all - especially because
it´s pretty confusing, contradicting and out of date - but the ten
commandments are pretty wisely and i thought it´s obeyed by all
Christians. But maybe this differs in other countries.
 
Actually, I'm pretty much stating standard Christian arguments here; while its true I'm an atheist, I was raised in a devout Christian family, and attended Bible College for four years. It was only after that that I became an atheist.

Christians who support capital punishment will point to the Old Testament, which very clearly, in undeniable terms (particularly in Leviticus) that capital punishment is the mandated punishment for a wide variety of crimes, including worshiping false gods, witchcraft, and adultery, as well as the obvious one of murder. And it very clearly grants the state power to execute criminals found guilty of those laws.

Christians who oppose capital punishment will point to the New Testament, where Jesus said that he was doing away with the "old law", and bringing in the "new law". They will argue that the OT laws no longer apply, that a new "higher" law of forgiveness and love takes precedent.

So, if you want to believe in capital punishment, there are lots of Bible verses and theological arguments to justify that belief. And if you want to believe that capital punishment is wrong, there are lots of Bible verses and theological arguments to justify that belief. Talk to Christians who believe the former, and they'll insist their interpretation is the right one. Talk to Christians who believe the latter, and they'll insist their interpretation is the right one.
 
Actually, I'm pretty much stating standard Christian arguments here; while its true I'm an atheist, I was raised in a devout Christian family, and attended Bible College for four years. It was only after that that I became an atheist.

Christians who support capital punishment will point to the Old Testament, which very clearly, in undeniable terms (particularly in Leviticus) that capital punishment is the mandated punishment for a wide variety of crimes, including worshiping false gods, witchcraft, and adultery, as well as the obvious one of murder. And it very clearly grants the state power to execute criminals found guilty of those laws.

Christians who oppose capital punishment will point to the New Testament, where Jesus said that he was doing away with the "old law", and bringing in the "new law". They will argue that the OT laws no longer apply, that a new "higher" law of forgiveness and love takes precedent.

So, if you want to believe in capital punishment, there are lots of Bible verses and theological arguments to justify that belief. And if you want to believe that capital punishment is wrong, there are lots of Bible verses and theological arguments to justify that belief. Talk to Christians who believe the former, and they'll insist their interpretation is the right one. Talk to Christians who believe the latter, and they'll insist their interpretation is the right one.

Okay. That´s it. Now i´m an Atheist, too.

But kidding aside - i know what you mean and i´m sorry for
repeating it, but the Ten Commandments are still the same,
no matter if you prefer the old or new testament.
 

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