The making of men

[Badger]

I just read this article, passed to me by a friend of mine.

http://www.claremont.org/writings/crb/winter2003/moore.html

I find it substantially captures my thoughts on the subject, but is somewhat limited in scope. The author only seems to see the urban North American culture, and doesn't bring up differing conditions in rural areas, and in other cultures.

Still, I thought it was a good enough read to bring here for everyone to look at and comment on if they wish.

 

[epepke]

I find it substantially captures my thoughts on the subject, but is somewhat limited in scope. The author only seems to see the urban North American culture, and doesn't bring up differing conditions in rural areas, and in other cultures.

Still, I thought it was a good enough read to bring here for everyone to look at and comment on if they wish.

I would be interested in knowing just which thoughts it captured. Myself, I get cynical thoughts and estimations of naivete when I read it.

 

[Badger]

The thoughts, in a nutshell, are the risks of absentee parents raising children who lack self dicipline or goals.

I worry. Maybe I'm just having the same concerns about the next generation that every previous generation had about the ones that followed it.

 

[The idea]

[...] For more than a decade I have been in a position to see young men in the making. [...] I have deliberately tried to figure out whether the nation through its most important institutions of moral instruction—its families and schools—is turning boys into responsible young men. Young women, always the natural judges of the male character, say emphatically "No." In my experience, many young women are upset, but not about an elusive Prince Charming or even the shortage of "cute guys" around. Rather, they have very specific complaints against how they have been treated in shopping malls or on college campuses by immature and uncouth males, and even more pointed complaints against their boyfriends or other male acquaintances who fail to protect them.

Executive Summary: Too many young men behave rudely in shopping malls and on college campuses. Also, young men are either not making an effort to apply their martial arts/handgun skills or they are not well-trained in those areas.

It appears to them that, except for a few lucky members of their sex, most women today must choose between males who are whiny, incapable of making decisions, and in general of "acting like men," or those who treat women roughly and are unreliable, unmannerly, and usually stupid.

Executive Summary: Too many young men either whine and act indecisively or act like louts.

First, a clear challenge must be issued to young males urging them to become the men their grandfathers and great-grandfathers were. This challenge must be clear, uncompromising, engaging, somewhat humorous, and inspiring. It cannot seem like a tired, fusty, chicken-little lament on the part of the old and boring, but must be seen as the truly revolutionary and cutting-edge effort to recover authentic manliness. Second, a new generation of scholars must tell the tale of how men used to become men and act manfully, and how we as a nation have lost our sense of true manliness. The spirit of this inquiry cannot be that of an autopsy but rather that of the Renaissance humanists, who sought to recover and to borrow the wisdom of the past in order to ennoble their own lives.

Executive Summary: We need a marketing campaign to sell manliness to young men.

I didn't read any further. The rule in marketing is: get your key point across in the first 25 words (or so). Well, I read a lot more than 25 words, but I haven't yet seen any real point. It's something about rudeness, martial arts, whining, indecisiveness, louts and marketing.

 

[epepke]

The thoughts, in a nutshell, are the risks of absentee parents raising children who lack self dicipline or goals.

I worry. Maybe I'm just having the same concerns about the next generation that every previous generation had about the ones that followed it.

I worry, too. Furthermore, I think that my views are not too different from your views. However, I think I'm older and more cynical than you. I used to be very politically active about them, and for several years I was even Florida coordinator for the Fathers' Rights and Equality Exchange. Yes, we did some good, and we made it possible for a lot of fathers to get more involved with their children. (Mothers, too--we found a lot of women also had problems with the current system.) But I found it to have a Sisuphian quality like pushing a peanut around the block with your nose.

It's all well and good to talk and write essays about the problem. You can even point fingers. But actually try to do something about it, and you'll automatically become the target for some of the vilest hatred you can imagine.

 

[Badger]

I worry, too. Furthermore, I think that my views are not too different from your views. However, I think I'm older and more cynical than you. I used to be very politically active about them, and for several years I was even Florida coordinator for the Fathers' Rights and Equality Exchange. Yes, we did some good, and we made it possible for a lot of fathers to get more involved with their children. (Mothers, too--we found a lot of women also had problems with the current system.) But I found it to have a Sisuphian quality like pushing a peanut around the block with your nose.

It's all well and good to talk and write essays about the problem. You can even point fingers. But actually try to do something about it, and you'll automatically become the target for some of the vilest hatred you can imagine.

Don't know about the age and cynicism bit, but that's neither here nor there.

I understand what you're saying as you'd automatically get the "My little angel wouldn't do such a thing" or the "How dare you infringe on my little angels rights and freedoms!!" response, wouldn't you?

And my fear is that the above type of coddling will lead to some sort of crisis situation, which will not be all joy and sunshine for those involved.

My cynicism is tempered in that I live in a rural area, and see many good kids who have self dicipline and goals, because the nature and responsibilities associated with rural life require such things of kids, from an early age.

I also am aware of other cultures who have explicit expectations of their kids, and well defined consequences when expectations are or are not met.

I worry about those who do not have the above, and the consequences that will arise when real life comes calling.

 

[epepke]

I understand what you're saying as you'd automatically get the "My little angel wouldn't do such a thing" or the "How dare you infringe on my little angels rights and freedoms!!" response, wouldn't you?

Um, no. That's almost comically naive.

I'm talking about being reviled on national television, and not simply by idiots like Bill O'Reilly. I'm talking about actual bomb threats when people go to speak on University campuses. I'm talking about tacit assumptions that any attempt to teach boys how to become men must necessarily be an attempt to teach them how to rape women in executive washrooms, with no evidence whatsoever given.

I am not making any of this stuff up; it was common in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Maybe people are more sane now. I hope they are, and maybe they are. But then again, people like me have largely given up, so perhaps they are merely quiescent.

In the words of Alan Sherman, It says if unsatisfactory you must take it to the factory but the factory's in Japan so rotsa ruck.

And if you don't believe me, actually try starting a program or something. Hey, maybe it might work. But in any event, give me a call in five years, OK?

 

[Phaycops]

Um, no. That's almost comically naive.

I'm talking about being reviled on national television, and not simply by idiots like Bill O'Reilly. I'm talking about actual bomb threats when people go to speak on University campuses. I'm talking about tacit assumptions that any attempt to teach boys how to become men must necessarily be an attempt to teach them how to rape women in executive washrooms, with no evidence whatsoever given.

I am not making any of this stuff up; it was common in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Maybe people are more sane now. I hope they are, and maybe they are. But then again, people like me have largely given up, so perhaps they are merely quiescent.

In the words of Alan Sherman, It says if unsatisfactory you must take it to the factory but the factory's in Japan so rotsa ruck.

And if you don't believe me, actually try starting a program or something. Hey, maybe it might work. But in any event, give me a call in five years, OK?

Did I miss something? You're going to have to be a teensy bit more detailed, epepke, sorry.

I, too quit reading long before the end of the essay. Some things stood out that worried me, though.

teachers, professors, and others in positions of moral influence...

Um, excuse me? I must have missed the memo where we decided that teachers and professors (!) would instill morals in other people's children. Teachers aren't parents and shouldn't be expected to do the things that parents do. As for university professors, well, I wouldn't want many of them instilling morals in impressionable 18-year-olds. Sheesh. Has this guy ever actually MET a university professor? I sure have, and while there are some outstanding educators out there, that has little bearing on their private lives. [ETA: What I mean by this is that an outstanding educator may still have loose morals, which makes them unsuitable for teaching morals to others.]

Also:

urging them to become the men their grandfathers and great-grandfathers were.

Ok, my problem here is that the kinds of men my grandfathers were are no longer relevant today. Men today are expected to act substantially differently from men a couple generations ago. Women expect different things than they did in, say, the 50's. It wasn't so long ago that we were expected to marry for security and babymaking, not for love or partnership. Marraiges today are ideally much more equal than they were 50 or 75 years ago.

Also, just skimming through the article, I found this little tidbit:

He has grown up under an overbearing mother

How does this bozo know that Murphy Brown was overbearing? I just bet it was because she was a strong, outspoken woman who didn't take no guff from no man. Strong=overbearing. Yep.

The part of the article that I read seemed to be based on an outdated image of what a "man" is supposed to be. Times, they are a-changin, and I don't think that the concept of "manhood" espoused in this article is relevant. Granted, I didn't read the whole article, but I feel I've read enough. The hints of misogyny were a bit off-putting, as well. That's my say. *phew*

 

[Badger]

Epepke, I didn't know it was that bad, so I guess yes, with regards to this, I'm comically naive.

Phaycops, I think you kind of missed the point, or I got another point from the article. What I got is that this guy is saying that the boys of today are not being brought up to be able to stand up for what they believe in. The examples he cites are selfish, in one of the two formats he describes.

I wouldn't see the character traits in either of my grandfathers, or their buddies being out of place in todays world, but maybe that's just me. They were honest, and hardworking, and they did what needed to be done to get by. They were respectful of others, and had definite rules/guidelines that they lived by and expected others to live by. I don't see these as being negative things.

Apparently, there's no real interest in this topic, so I'll drop it.

 

[metropolis_part_one]

http://www.claremont.org/writings/c...2003/moore.html

That's one of the dumbest articles I've ever read. Was it a joke?

 

[Badger]

Why would you say that?

 

[(S)]

Phaycops, I think you kind of missed the point, or I got another point from the article. What I got is that this guy is saying that the boys of today are not being brought up to be able to stand up for what they believe in. The examples he cites are selfish, in one of the two formats he describes.
[/B]

Let's go for a little gender equality. Is it not important to ensure that the /children/ of today are able to stand up for what the believe in? Should not the little girls be told that they should not as submissive as the Wimpy Male the article lamented, lacking their own thumos?

 

[Phaycops]

Badger,
I agree that the traits you cited are worthwhile and should be taught, but there are other traits that men in particular were taught only a generation or two ago, and I wouldn't like to see them taught to boys today. If this guy thinks that the ideal of manhood is my grandfather's generation, he's hopelessly outdated (not to mention that women today enjoy a little thing called "equality"). That's all. I find the undertones of misogyny to be a bit distasteful as well.

 

[Badger]

Phaycops, and (S), I understand what you're saying, and that is why I used the word "kids" in my post describing my fears.

This guy directs his article towards males, to be sure. Ine th article he mentions that females have equality to fight for, and inroads into traditional male bastions to struggle against, and that provides a goal for them (summarized), so he sees them as being less at loose ends than males.

I do wish he'd made the point that we should apply todays knowledge to yesterdays concept of honour and character, though. Including something to that effect would probably have cleared up any confusion about inferences to condoning prejudices or misogyny that could be noted in previous generations.