The Loving God / Hell Paradox

[athon]

I was going to put this into the 'contradictions' thread, but feel in a way it fits better on its own.

I had a discussion with a Xian colleague the other day who explained that God is pure love.

I was tempted to simply nod and say, 'He sure is!', but since this guy (a damn good physics teacher) is actually quite enjoyable to talk to about science, I thought I'd nut through this in a logical fashion and see where I got. Well, I lost three hours of my life, but did get for it some mild insight into the paradoxes that are acceptable in a believer's mind.

Hear me out.

God is love. Now, as humans, we can only relate to God by defining Him with human characteristics. The closest we can come to understanding this nature of pure love is to see that it is an emotion which has no conditions, and no negative sentiments. Ignoring instances in the Bible that contradict this, God's actions are all made because of an unconditional sense of love he has for all souls.

Therefore we cannot define any divine actions as deriving from a negative emotion.

God created Hell, and rules over it. The chief resident in Hell is an entity who was denied free choice, and in so rebelled (free choice stolen?) and was cast out of Paradise. Hell, whatever its nature, is commonly defined as being 'A place where God is known to be real, but is absent'. We'll use that definition for the purpose of this thread.

God makes an entity (man). He grants man free choice because he loves him (use typical 'Father and Son' analogy here).

BUT

He creates the following;

Rules, which when broken, are defined as 'sin'.
The tendency to bias choice of sin over virtue.

The ultimate sin is the denial of God's love, which ultimately is the denial that God exists. As man is made with the ability to see reason over emotion, God imbues man with the biased ability to discount His existance. However this is the one sin that will keep you out of Heaven.

On Judgement, you are presented with Absolute Truth of God's existence. Here, you can be forgiven your sins and enter Paradise, or you can still deny God's existence and go to Hell. Hence Hell is a choice you make to go in respect to Heaven...therefore, you are still happy for all eternity because you make the choice you want.

In other words, in the very least (ignoring Hell as being a place for sinners etc.) either Hell is a paradox because you go somewhere you want to be, or God is a paradox because He cannot subscribe to our definition of unconditional love as He created damnation, biased our choices and, on finally revealing Absolute Truth to atheists, denies those who used reason to understand the world Paradise and makes them suffer for eternity.

If God is unconditional love, there can be no Hell, and not believing in Him until presented with Absolute Truth on Judgement Day is not a problem.

Which is why we keep science seperate from religion.

Athon

 

[Brown]

Take a look at Bertrand Russell's "Why I am Not a Christian." There is a serious moral problem with hell, in that the concept of neverending punishment is fundamentally unjust:

There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person that is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence.
...
There is, of course, the familiar text about the sin against the Holy Ghost: "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world nor in the world to come." That text has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world, for all sorts of people have imagined that they have committed the sin against the Holy Ghost, and thought that it would not be forgiven them either in this world or in the world to come. I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of this sort into the world.
...
I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world, and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you could take Him as his chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that.

George Carlin puts it a little differently:

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!!

But He loves you.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Hmm. I was raised Catholic, and I have no idea whether the following is actual Catholic dogma, somebody's theory not inconsistent with Catholic dogma, or whether I just stumbled across a renegade CCD teacher or priest....but I was taught that hell isn't a place of fiery torment or picturesque punishment, but rather the state of being eternally separated from God. Like he's ignoring you, I guess. Apparently that's supposed to be pretty awful, mystically or whatever. It certainly sounds more appropriate, in the context of theology, than the rather psychologically-revealing masochist fantasy that seems to be the fanciful notions of Hell.

 

[jmercer]

Good posts. However, there's absolutely no reason to think that the motivations of an eternal being with universe-creating powers can be accurately represented using human concepts. We don't even understand ourselves yet. And in all seriousness, that is a major issue when discussing God - we are trying to describe a being that is, by definition, "supreme" in the Universe. Why should God fit into human concepts? In example, I doubt that many people here would dispute the following statement:

"If we were able to travel the universe at will, and intelligent life existed on other worlds, we would eventually encounter some intelligent life-forms so different from ourselves that we would never be able to really comprehend their motivations."

Why would a being that created a vast universe of immense size and complexity be more comprehensible than some alien species? No, instead, I believe that all we know about God was established through the filters of primitive minds, embellished, and then passed on to subsequent generations.

 

[Pahansiri]

I compiled this for a debate with a Christian friend.

I asked If
“1 John 4:8] ...God is love.”
And
“[1 Cor 13:5] Love...keeps no record of wrongs.”
And
“..Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;...it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;...it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right...Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...LOVE NEVER FAILS; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues,they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away...[1Cor 13:4-8]”
and
“[1John 4:18.8] There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.
And
John 8:15 (English-NIV) You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

””” Then
1) it is clear”he” keeps no record of wrongs and does not judge.
2) “he” is not a “jealous” God.
3) “he” has no ego and can not demand to or wish to be worshiped or placed before any other
4) “he” does NOT “insist on his own way”
5) Does not want to be feared in any way.
6) does not punish.

 

[Iacchus]

Why do we have prisons on earth? To detain those who are incapable of behaving civilly towards others, correct? Why should hell be viewed any differently?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Why do we have prisons on earth? To detain those who are incapable of behaving civilly towards others, correct? Why should hell be viewed any differently?

Because if we could "cure" people of their incivility, we would opt for that over punishment. By definition, an omnipotent being is capable of the cure, but chooses the punishment.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Why do we have prisons on earth? To detain those who are incapable of behaving civilly towards others, correct? Why should hell be viewed any differently?

Prison is supposed to be rehabilitative as well, with the prisoners released eventually once they've paid their debt. (Obviously, life-sentences and the death row people are excepted here.) Does that suggest that Hell might be temporary, the damned learn their lesson and get released to Heaven? That sounds more fair, especially considering that eternity is a pretty long time.

 

[Pahansiri]

Why do we have prisons on earth? To detain those who are incapable of behaving civilly towards others, correct? Why should hell be viewed any differently?

Do the Jailers of prisons on earth know before an inmate is born what crime they will commit?

Do the Jailers of prisons on earth know before an inmate is born what could be done to prevent this?

Would not Jailers of prisons on earth know before an inmate is born take steps to make sure the inmate never became one? Yes they would.

As a father if I knew before my child was born that he would kill another and if I was in total control over changing events etc and did nothing I would be a lesser father. Just as such a god who would allow such then punish for what he allowed to happen is a meaningless small being not worth belief or worship.

 

[Iacchus]

Because if we could "cure" people of their incivility, we would opt for that over punishment. By definition, an omnipotent being is capable of the cure, but chooses the punishment.

What is freedom though, without a diversity of things to choose from? ... i.e., both good and bad.

 

[Iacchus]

As a father if I knew before my child was born that he would kill another and if I was in total control over changing events etc and did nothing I would be a lesser father. Just as such a god who would allow such then punish for what he allowed to happen is a meaningless small being not worth belief or worship.

And, in fact if God did not allow for diversity in life, would there be anything to choose from?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

What is freedom though, without a diversity of things to choose from? ... i.e., both good and bad.

Why does a diversity have to include something bad? If I offer you a bowl of chocolate or vanilla ice cream, do I have to offer you a bowl of feces, too, just to make sure it's diverse enough to insure your freedom?

 

[TragicMonkey]

And, in fact if God did not allow for diversity in life, would there be anything to choose from?

Did your parents let you play with guns? If they didn't, they were limiting your freedom, and denying you the right to prove that you would have chosen not to shoot somebody. Since you were denied that entire avenue of potential evil, you cannot claim to be good.

 

[Pahansiri]

And, in fact if God did not allow for diversity in life, would there be anything to choose from?

What does that have to do with what I said?

1- you need to prove God, prove it "allows" diversity.

Then of course if there was not diversity to have it would be very strange, what is reality is reality.

Yours is like the statment " if we all looked alike it would be boring" No it would be our reality and to not look the same would be very strange meet with fear and hate, much like it is now.

But back to the point what you posted had nothing to do with what i said, nothing new really.

 

[Iacchus]

Does that suggest that Hell might be temporary, the damned learn their lesson and get released to Heaven? That sounds more fair, especially considering that eternity is a pretty long time.

I think to the extent that one is not incorrigibly bound to their evil (if they can be rehabilitated), that they are let loose after a time.

Also, as I understand, going to hell has very little to do with what religion you subscribe to, but whether or not you lived a moral and purposeful life. So, being an Atheist does not necessarily preclude you from going to heaven ... albeit it may not help much if you have confirmed within yourself that God doesn't exist.

 

[Iacchus]

Did your parents let you play with guns? If they didn't, they were limiting your freedom, and denying you the right to prove that you would have chosen not to shoot somebody. Since you were denied that entire avenue of potential evil, you cannot claim to be good.

Ah, but there are many lessons in life to be learned though, hopefully with the simplest lessons first. Also, as I understand it, those who die as little children, are automatically received into heaven.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I think to the extent that one is not incorrigibly bound to their evil (if they can be rehabilitated), that they are let loose after a time.

Also, as I understand, going to hell has very little to do with what religion you subscribe to, but whether or not you lived a moral and purposeful life. So, being an Atheist does not necessarily preclude you from going to heaven ... albeit it may not help much if you have confirmed within yourself that God doesn't exist.

Also, as I understand it, those who die as little children, are automatically received into heaven.

Where is it you have received this understanding from?

 

[Iacchus]

Yours is like the statment " if we all looked alike it would be boring" No it would be our reality and to not look the same would be very strange meet with fear and hate, much like it is now.

If we all looked alike there would only be one of us, in which case there would probably be nothing to support it/us.

 

[Pahansiri]

I think to the extent that one is not incorrigibly bound to their evil (if they can be rehabilitated), that they are let loose after a time.

Also, as I understand, going to hell has very little to do with what religion you subscribe to, but whether or not you lived a moral and purposeful life. So, being an Atheist does not necessarily preclude you from going to heaven ... albeit it may not help much if you have confirmed within yourself that God doesn't exist.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6).

 

[Pahansiri]

If we all looked alike there would only be one of us, in which case there would probably be nothing to support it/us.

No if we all looked alike there would be 6 billion who looked alike.