The lesser of evils

[Mycroft]

Fatah wins 51 Palestinian local councils: official

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party won 51 councils in the latest phase of Palestinian local elections, with militant group Hamas gaining control of 13, an official said on Saturday.

Of 104 municipalities up for grabs in the occupied West Bank in the third phase of Palestinian local elections, 40 went to other factions, said Jamal al-Shobaki, head of the Higher Commission for Local Elections.

Is this a good sign? I dunno, at least Hamas didn't get the majority vote.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1175402

 

[Mycroft]

Of course Hamas doesn't like it:

Hamas Claims Election Results Distorted

GAZA CITY,
Gaza Strip — The Hamas militant group accused the Palestinian Election Committee on Saturday of distorting the results of a round of municipal voting to make it appear that Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas'
Fatah party — which came out ahead — had swept the poll.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051001/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

 

[Bjorn]

Sorry Mycroft - I'm just testing if I'm here.

 

[CBL4]

I think it is a positive sign. The only way the peace process can move forward is if some of the terrorists decide it is in their interest to become politicians. This is what happened in Northern Ireland.

Yes, this means that some pretty disgusting people will be given positions of responsibility (instead of the jail cell or grave that they deserve) but it is the only way forward.

It is the only hope. It is not a particularly likely scenario nor is it a particularly ideal scenario but it is the only scenario that leads towards peace in the next decade.

CBL



T

 

[Cleopatra]

I have started to think the same CBL4 but a very recent article by Yossi Beilin in Bitter Lemons put me back in thoughts. Nobody can question Beilin's devotion to Peace and his vaste knowledge on the matter since he has participated in various negotiations with the Palestinians in front and behind the curtains.

I think that he has a point. What you and others think?
Recognizing Hamas is Irresponsible.(Bitterlemons.org)

 

[CBL4]

There is no doubt that Hamas is a disgusting, evil terrorist group. However, there is also no doubt that they have significant support among the PLO. In an ideal world, we would hunt all the terrorists down and also arrest all their complicit supporters. Unofortunately, we cannot do so.

Let's assume Beilin is correct that Hamas's participation is a violation of the Oslo agreement. What do we do? He seems to suggest that the PA ban them but this will not solve any problems. They and their supporters will continue be terrorists and murder people.

If Hamas leaders are given power via the ballot box they may decrease their terrorism. The truly violent will not but perhaps they can be shoved out of the mainstream. A Hamas split into three groups - charity, political and rump terrorists is possible. There are lots of "may" and "perhaps" in here, but I have not heard of any alternative that has a nearly as good a chance.

I suggest the world hold its nose and try to coopt the not quite so evil members of Hamas.

CBL

 

[Cleopatra]

There is no doubt that Hamas is a disgusting, evil terrorist group. However, there is also no doubt that they have significant support among the PLO. In an ideal world, we would hunt all the terrorists down and also arrest all their complicit supporters. Unofortunately, we cannot do so.

I don't think that the issue is looking for an ideal world. What we really have here is a serious combat of ideas and two different worlds.You know, in our world antisemitism is disguised behind the antiwest and anti-enlightment feelings.Maybe you don't experience this in this State but it's getting obvious in Europe. There is a conscious effort to symbolize the struggle of the poor and the underprivilege as the battle against USA and Zionism. In reality what they want is to see Israel destructed.Of course I understand what you say and I agree with you.

Let's assume Beilin is correct that Hamas's participation is a violation of the Oslo agreement. What do we do? He seems to suggest that the PA ban them but this will not solve any problems. They and their supporters will continue be terrorists and murder people.

I agree. You cannot put Hamas to the margin because Hamas is very popular among Palestinians.Unlike PLO they have showed a fair use of money on the benefit of the poor and however harsh it appears, they are heroes for the Palestinians.

If Hamas leaders are given power via the ballot box they may decrease their terrorism. The truly violent will not but perhaps they can be shoved out of the mainstream. A Hamas split into three groups - charity, political and rump terrorists is possible. There are lots of "may" and "perhaps" in here, but I have not heard of any alternative that has a nearly as good a chance.

I suggest the world hold its nose and try to coopt the not quite so evil members of Hamas.

CBL

I tend to agree. The safest way to show the emptyness of an extremist group is to drag it in the political arena and force it play by the political rules.Voters are not idiots.They know whose words are empty and whose have some essence.When a terrorist group is asked to talk politically soon it collapses. Some of them adjust but the real criminals cannot assimilate to the political society and they get marginalized.What worries me is the extreme rise of antisemitism and the tolerance towards radical islamists.

 

[CapelDodger]

I have started to think the same CBL4 but a very recent article by Yossi Beilin in Bitter Lemons put me back in thoughts. Nobody can question Beilin's devotion to Peace and his vaste knowledge on the matter since he has participated in various negotiations with the Palestinians in front and behind the curtains.

I think that he has a point. What you and others think?
Recognizing Hamas is Irresponsible.(Bitterlemons.org)

I think he knows the Palestinians of the PLO ("P-type") better than he knows the Palestinians of Hamas ("H-type"). H-types are a bit of a mystery to P-types. H-types are more prevalent in Gaza (culturally linked to Egypt, and thus the Muslim Brotherhood) while P-types are more prevalent in the West Bank. As you're aware (but others might not be), they have little in common apart from their shared experience of zionism, which is, admittedly, a pretty big thing to have in common. Israeli experience in Gaza has been very different from experience in the West Bank. (Experience in Southern Lebanon has been different again.)

Beilin's invocation of the 1995 interm agreement is laughable. The whole Oslo thing died with Rabin's last breath. That was then, this is now.

In a world seeking to combat terrorism and still looking for the right way to do it, it would be surprising indeed if Israel, paradoxically, were to acquiesce in the legitimization of a terrorist organization under its very nose, while the world encouraged it to do so and even encouraged and held secret contacts with that organization. The unilateral withdrawal from Gaza genuinely strengthened Hamas; now its integration into the Palestinian political system would crown it as the most important Palestinian organization.

Legitimisation of the movement is the way to combat terrorism. From what I've read Hamas has taken a PR beating recently, in Gaza, when its military wing provided Sharon with a pretext for playing the hard-man. When this happened before the pull-out there wasn't such an effect, since the Palestinians were in constant retreat and the Israelis were clearly intent on taking everything over time. Now, a destroyed school is a school lost that wouldn't have been lost anyway. The PA are taking advantage of that, and so are the politically-minded elements of Hamas, those that aren't wedded to a military struggle for its own sake. Those elements should be nurtured, not permanently ostracised.

 

[CapelDodger]

Yes, this means that some pretty disgusting people will be given positions of responsibility (instead of the jail cell or grave that they deserve) ...

There you sound like Paisley.

... but it is the only way forward.

And there you don't. Past atrocities are in the past, nothing can be done to change them, and if they can justify continued conflict (the Paisleyite position) the conflict will not end. If the conflict will not end, never give up the gun.

 

[a_unique_person]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World...torm-parliament/2005/10/04/1128191681556.html

Dozens of disgruntled Palestinian police officers stormed parliament building, complaining they don't have enough firepower to confront Hamas.
Politicians also, upset over the growing chaos demanded Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas reshuffle the cabinet and fire his security chief.
The protest and parliament's rebuke of Abbas came a day after the worst fighting between Hamas and police in nearly a decade.
Three people were killed, including the deputy police chief in the Shati refugee camp near Gaza City who was shot in the head after he and his men ran out of bullets during a Hamas assault on their station.
The violence underscored the difficulties Abbas and his ill-equipped security forces face in trying to take control of unruly Gaza.
Since Israel's pullout from the coastal territory last month, the Islamic militant Hamas has become increasingly brazen in challenging Abbas.
Israel and the United States demand that Abbas disarm Hamas. Instead, he has settled for a ban on displaying weapons in public, and has tried to coax gunmen off the streets with promises of jobs and political participation.
After the most recent onslaught on his security forces, Abbas said he would stand firm.
"We will not remain silent in the face of this," he told reporters at his Gaza City office. "This mob behaviour, this chaos must end."
The authority, he said, is "ready to use all means to prevent the public display of arms".
However, Palestinian security officials say police are no match for the armed groups.
In Gaza, only about half of the 18,000 members of the security forces carry guns, with a limited number of bullets at their disposal, the officials say. Hamas in Gaza commands at least 5,000 gunmen, according to some estimates, and has equipped them not only with assault rifles, but also with anti-tank missiles and grenades.

Sounds like the PA needs to be backed in it's attempt to control Hamas.

 

[The Fool]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World...torm-parliament/2005/10/04/1128191681556.html



Sounds like the PA needs to be backed in it's attempt to control Hamas.

Or at least not hindered....Webfusion told me once that to take control all the PA have to do is walk up the street. I think he said that battons and badges would be enough for a lot of them.....

It seems to me that anyone asked to put down Hammas should at least be allowed sufficient firepower, after all...the IDF could not manage it with unlimited firearms.

 

[Cleopatra]

This is a very nice post, deeply political, full of dirt of course in the usual CapleDodgerian fashion(----> to the kind readers: Please don't pity Capel Dodger for reading that and please don't report me. He enjoys my talking dirty to him, it's our game, he pushes my buttons so as I talk dirty to him.) but it demonstrates deep political thinking. It's been some time since I have read something that political. Kudos to you CD,now get ready for some flames.

I think he knows the Palestinians of the PLO ("P-type") better than he knows the Palestinians of Hamas ("H-type"). H-types are a bit of a mystery to P-types. H-types are more prevalent in Gaza (culturally linked to Egypt, and thus the Muslim Brotherhood) while P-types are more prevalent in the West Bank. As you're aware (but others might not be), they have little in common apart from their shared experience of zionism, which is, admittedly, a pretty big thing to have in common. Israeli experience in Gaza has been very different from experience in the West Bank. (Experience in Southern Lebanon has been different again.)

First of all what poor Herztl has to do with Hamas? I don't think that the majority of the militants have ever heard of Herzl so I don't know to what " zionist experience" do you refer.

As always your observations are really astute but they are just observations. How do those observations traslate in the political practice and how the observed lack of knowledge from the side of Beilin affect his views? The question is not rhetorical I really don't see where are you getting at.

Beilin's invocation of the 1995 interm agreement is laughable. The whole Oslo thing died with Rabin's last breath. That was then, this is now.

I understand that but Beilin is not an idiot to believe that 1995 has anything to do with 2005. Those who wish to talk with political terms though and those who appeal to the International Law and Justice every other day need to be addressed with the decision of the International Community to which they appeal. Usually, it's the Palestinian side that brings the international agreements on the table.

Legitimisation of the movement is the way to combat terrorism.

Unfortunately ( for me) I have to agree with you. I don't know if you remember but I have posted what strong feelings the handshake between Arafat and Rabin has created in me. Mostly because of the face of Rabin. The man who hesitated so so much to give his hand, gave his life for peace. It's easy to give your hand and smile at the camera,the difficult part is to enforce the agreement especially when you are the one with the power. Now we are asked to legitimize the movement that has been killing our people in the streets. Ok. We will do that too.NOT with pleasure.

From what I've read Hamas has taken a PR beating recently, in Gaza, when its military wing provided Sharon with a pretext for playing the hard-man. When this happened before the pull-out there wasn't such an effect, since the Palestinians were in constant retreat and the Israelis were clearly intent on taking everything over time. Now, a destroyed school is a school lost that wouldn't have been lost anyway. The PA are taking advantage of that, and so are the politically-minded elements of Hamas, those that aren't wedded to a military struggle for its own sake. Those elements should be nurtured, not permanently ostracised.

Ok I agree again. BUT it's not only the P-types and the political( did I use this word) wing of Hamas that need support but the pacifist voices in Israel as well. Calling them zionist and using the term zionism although you know that you shouldn't and you don't help much.