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The JREF is not an atheist organization

UnrepentantSinner

A post by Alan Smithee
UnrepentantSinner
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Is this a correct statement and should it have any effect on our approach to the public face of organized skepticism? If it is not a correct statement, should the JREF change its mission statement to reflect this fact.
 
Short answer: no.

Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
 
UnrepentantSinner; said:
I was at TAM3 and witness to some of the events that eventually elicited this statement. Two years have passed though, and it seems that skeptic has been redfined to include only strong (and militant) atheists.
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No. Just because there is a debate among skeptics on the matter doesn't mean a Catholic can't be a skeptic. I'd say they're clearly not skeptical about Catholicism, but that's a separate matter. Skepticism is not an all-or-nothing definition.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
No. Just because there is a debate among skeptics on the matter doesn't mean a Catholic can't be a skeptic. I'd say they're clearly not skeptical about Catholicism, but that's a separate matter. Skepticism is not an all-or-nothing definition.
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Agreed. We've made a label out of an action.
 
Excellent and highly appropriate quip prewitt. I like it.

ImaginalDisc said:
No. Just because there is a debate among skeptics on the matter doesn't mean a Catholic can't be a skeptic. I'd say they're clearly not skeptical about Catholicism, but that's a separate matter. Skepticism is not an all-or-nothing definition.
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That's what I've been thinking all along, but apparently I'm crazy for thinking that.
 
UnrepentantSinner said:
That's what I've been thinking all along, but apparently I'm crazy for thinking that.
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Not at all. I cringe every time I hear "I thought you were a skeptic" or something similar. If the JREF or the Skeptics' Society, P&T, or whoever causes someone to become skeptical about everything but religion, there is still more skepticism in the world than there was before.

I would even teach them our secret handshake. :)
 
prewitt81 said:
Not at all. I cringe every time I hear "I thought you were a skeptic" or something similar. If the JREF or the Skeptics' Society, P&T, or whoever causes someone to become skeptical about everything but religion, there is still more skepticism in the world than there was before.

I would even teach them our secret handshake. :)
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Yep, for folks who like to cry foul at the Scotsman Fallacy, some of us who proclaim our skeptitude sure seem guilty of it often enough.

I'd love to see people apply their skepticism toward areas of faith...but frankly I'm happy they are applying critical thinking in the areas they are ready and willing to.
 
There is a subtle difference, that to me isn´t a difference at all:

There is the "political" label of "atheist": You take up that flag as something radically important to your organization. Randi says that the JREF does NOT hold that flag, meaning it does not have an atheist agenda and it does not shun religious people for being religious.

There is the PRAGMATICAL position: Randi says that the JREF stands critical and doubtful of religion as an account of reality. That means that the JREF doesn´t support, encourage nor otherwise promotes or discusses religion in itself. He is very clear when he says that religious statements do not have a privileged treatment and they are seen with skepticism.

It could, of course, simply take the "suspension of judgement" position. Simply refuse to debate any sort of statement of a religious nature. Not the case.

The JREF is pragmatically atheist (weak atheist, agnostic, let us not move to this discussion again). Religion is about accepting and believing, the JREF is about proving and doubting. So there you have it.

On a side note: I´m a moral person and I always act rightly, except when I go to a department store. There I like to shoplift because I just love clothes.
You can´t choose to be skeptic regarding certain things and simply NOT skeptic regarding some other arbitrary stuff. Doesn´t make any sense.
 
Caius Textor said:
On a side note: I´m a moral person and I always act rightly, except when I go to a department store. There I like to shoplift because I just love clothes.
You can´t choose to be skeptic regarding certain things and simply NOT skeptic regarding some other arbitrary stuff. Doesn´t make any sense.
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I don't know. It's like saying that the only way to go is "I'm a skeptic, and therefore I believe that P". I prefer "I believe that P, and therefore I'm a skeptic", i.e. take the label because it fits your thinking (better than others), but don't let the label define your thinking.
 
My whole point here is that any "label" is unimportant. What matters is what you actually do. If you pick topics to be skeptical about you´re just using it at your convenience and not as a thinking tool used to reach rational conclusions.
 
Caius Textor said:
My whole point here is that any "label" is unimportant. What matters is what you actually do. If you pick topics to be skeptical about you´re just using it at your convenience and not as a thinking tool used to reach rational conclusions.
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How do you determine whether someone who is religious has skeptically considered their beliefs or not? Or are you suggesting they have not unless they are atheist... which leads back to the OP.
 
Skepticism isn't about atheism any more than it is about contrarianism, although I'm sure we have plenty of those around as well.
 
I have a hard time understanding how a skeptic can be religious. It seems to me, that the belief in god and the belief in skepticism are opposed to each other? I would have thought being Atheist was a more natural partner to skepticism.
 
OK lets look at this skeptically. What is the evidence that the JREF is an "atheist organisation"?
 
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