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The Jericho child morality study

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Note: I was very unsure as to where to put this, but I decided upon Science because it's a thread about a scientific experiment. If it devolves into a discussion on Jericho, mods should feel free to move/split the thread.

OK, so having seen Richard Dawkins' book reading at Randolph-Macon Woman's College, and having read the God Delusion, I'm wondering how much truth there is to the experiment he refers to in which Jewish children, aged eight to 14, are split into two groups, both of which are asked of their opinion on the Jericho genocide. The first group of kids are told the story as it happened in the Bible. For the second group, however, the story is altered so that it's not a Jewish general massacring a gentile city, but a "general Lin" annihalating "a Chinese city 3000 years ago".

According to Richard Dawkins' book, the kids in the experiment had apparently been raised to accept and support even the more grisly parts of the Bible, and most of them supported the genocide wholeheartedly, most of them for religious reasons. But now, here comes the scary part: when the second group of kids had the same story read to them, with its setting changed from the Middle East to China, almost all of them reacted negatively - again, for religious reasons.

The implications, of course, are that it's easy to use religion to sway children to support genocide and other atrocities, if only you indoctrinate them from childhood, and that religious beliefs effectively cloud your judgement, making it easy for unscrupulous politicians and clergy to exploit others' goodwill (see for a possible example Bush's "god-given crusade" in Iraq).

But I'm a bit curious as to how exactly the experiment was carried out. I googled various phrases and all I could find was various blogs and whatnot referencing the experiment, but no publications from Tamarin himself. I'm especially curious as to how much background story the second group was given. Was it just "there was this guy in China who killed everyone in a kingdom, now what do you think of that", or were they given Joshua's justifications? If they had the massacre presented to them more like "there was this kingdom in China 3000 years ago that sacrificed children and did these and these and these other evil things, so General Lin, whose people needed a homeland, went in there and killed every human being who lived there", the experiment has far more value (but then you start questioning yourself whether they wouldn't understand what the story was really about - "saay, that sounds awfully like that story we were read in school about Jericho, I wonder if...").

So could someone with more knowledge point me towards primary sources, and/or elaborate yourselves?
 
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"Completely destroy them -- the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites -- as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy. 20:17-18). See also Genesis 15:16; 2 Kings 21:11; Ezra 9:1; 1 Kings 11:5-7; 1 Kings 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3; 2 Kings 23:13; 2 Chronicles 36:14; Ezra 9:11; Judges 10:6.

http://www.jesuswalk.com/joshua/herem.htm

If you're taught someone is evil, then of course it's okay to kill them. There are mosques throughout the middle east that teach that Americans are evil (since they are usually envied otherwise, and who wants to spend their money educating their silly women?). Okay, I'm basing this on a documentary I saw on the horrible stuff touted in these mosques, but my point is sound.
They are taught to HATE us, and jews, and so killing us is not just a good thing, but REQUIRED to save themselves.

The kids in the experiment weren't taught that the Chinese will lead them to hell.
 
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I've got a copy of The God Delusion here, that I haven't read yet. The reference for the study will presumably be in the notes at the end of the book. Any idea which chapter it is in?

ETA: Here is the Hartnung paper (which seems to be the source Dawkins used) which describes the study:

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/ltn01.html

I doubt the original study by Tamarin is online, but here are the references from Hartnung:


Tamarin, G.R. 1966. "The Influence of Ethnic and Religious Prejudice on Moral Judgment." New Outlook, 9:1:49-58.
Tamarin, G.R. 1973. The Israeli Dilemma: Essays on a Warfare State. Rotterdam: Rotterdam University Press.

PS: What do you want editing in the title?
 
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I've got a copy of The God Delusion here, that I haven't read yet. The reference for the study will presumably be in the notes at the end of the book.
Heh, well, yeah, but I can't find the book:D.

Any idea which chapter it is in?
I'll try to hunt it down in the reading on Google Video. Other than that, try looking for "Jericho" in the index.
 
They were taught well from that biblical quote, as you can see in their own words from the quote on the study:

The people of the different religion could have influenced the Israelis

OH NOES!!!

Actually, it okay to kill Mongolians and Chinese if they are gonna influence Israelis. They forgot to say that. Then killing Chinese okay, and someone else can take out the Mongolians later. Perfect.
 
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Thanks, but that's another secondary source. I'm looking for material that comes directly from the researchers.

The people of the different religion could have influenced the Israelis
OH NOES!!!
"Our master race is threatened by an inferior people. We must destroy them in self-defence".

:insert Godwin here:
 
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I remember when my niece and nephew were very little, their mom played a "Veggie Tales" cartoon of the Jericho battle.

My niece asked what the peas had done that made God tell the other veggies to destroy their city. (A very precocious toddler, that girl.)

Of course, no satisfactory answer was forthcoming.

So much for that lesson on obedience.

Skepticism shall set you free!

Product description said:
Josh and the Big Wall! contains one hilarious, fully computer-animated story that teaches children a biblical perspective on obedience. Oh, boy! After forty years of wandering in the desert, the children of Israel finally get to go to the Promised Land! Only one little thing they've overlooked, though...Jericho! Yep. Surrounded by huge walls and bristling with really annoying peas, no one gets to the Promised Land without going through Jericho first! But how? Joshua has God's directions, but they sound kind of...well, weird. To make matters worse, some of the veggie are cooking up a plan of their own! In the end, they have to decide whether it's better to do things their way, or God's way! Kids of all ages will learn a lesson about obedience in this hilarious retelling of the classic Bible story - Josh and the Big Wall!
 
My niece asked what the peas had done that made God tell the other veggies to destroy their city. (A very precocious toddler, that girl.)

Of course, no satisfactory answer was forthcoming.
Good on her.

ETA: I have a friend who has a little sister who was almost in tears once because God did so much wrong in the Bible. Good to see such kids questioning and judging such twisted stories, rather than just blindly accepting them as justified.

ETA2:
Josh and the Big Wall! contains one hilarious, fully computer-animated story that teaches children a biblical perspective on obedience. Oh, boy!
Genocide has never been so much fun!

Next up, a fun-filled animation film on the Holocaust for the whole family!

Fritz and the Showers! contains one hilarious, fully computer-animated story that teaches children a biblical perspective on obedience. Yay for you! After six years of living in the slums of Poland, little Fritz finally gets to leave his home town! Only one little thing they've overlooked, though...they're going to a death camp! Yep. Surrounded by huge walls and bristling with really annoying peas with firearms, no one gets to be free without doing some Arbeit first! Joshua has Adolf the big potato's directions, but they sound kind of...well, weird. To make matters worse, some of the veggie are cooking up an escape plan! In the end, they have to decide whether it's better to do things their way, or Hitler's way! Kids of all ages will learn a lesson about obedience and Nazi reprisals in this hilarious retelling of the classic story - Fritzl and the Showers!

Ugh.
 
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The only thing I know about the experiment is what I've read in this thread, but from the detail we have, I don't think the conclusion about it being easy to indoctrinate children to accept genocide by using such stories is necessarily valid. I don't think that seeing horror in the Chinese army story and not in the Joshua one necessarily means the children's religious beliefs would be more likely to lead to them being persuaded that current-day genocide was a good idea if it was carried out for religious reasons, because it might not have been religious preference that made them more accepting of the story. An example that might have some relevance:

I remember that when I was at primary school, aged about 10, we were told Bible stories about things like the flood, Jericho, and the contest on Mount Carmel where the Bible says Elijah ended up killing the prophets of Baal. I didn't feel any horror at the stories, and I think that was because they had an other-worldly quality, with them containing supernatural things, as if they'd happened to beings far away and long ago in a parallel universe, who weren't much more real than the people we'd heard about in fairy stories. So we got habituated to hearing about them without feeling any unsettling emotions.

I think it would have been different if the stories had been more specific about time and place, especially if they'd said things like, "In the year 4000 BC, God sent a flood to destroy the world. There were a million people living in Britain at the time. All the British people died. Some tried to escape, but the flood got them in the end." I think more detail, such as the suffering of individuals affected, combined with the story being about people we could identify with, might have turned us overnight into rampant anti-theists! If I'd met someone who said they were a Christian after that, I might have said, "How can you worship a God that went out of his way to kill British people!" :)

With Israeli children, the fact that it was Israelis said to be doing the killing at Jericho might have made the stories come alive more, but they might still have contained an other-worldly quality for the children that detached them from reality a bit, so they weren't hit with a sense of horror at them and they got used to thinking of them as just something that happened a long time ago in the hazy past. Bear in mind that they may well have been taught the Jericho story for years before the experimentors told it to them along with stories of miracles at the Red Sea and in Egypt, so they might have seemed to have an element of unreality that a story of a Chinese general marching into a war of aggression against another country wouldn't have.

Also, it's possible that the children knew about the story of Jericho in sanitised form, so they were habituated to thinking about it, so a few extra details didn't have the impact on them that hearing the whole thing might have done if they'd never heard it before, as if it was a completely different story.

So their different reactions to the two stories might have had nothing to do with whether they could be persuaded that modern-day genocide for religious reasons could be a good thing if it was being done by their side.

It may be that more was done to try to ascertain the attitudes of the children before the survey concluded its results. But on the face of it, the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the experiment.

What might have been more revealing would have been if the children had been given a prophecy from Isaiah and told it referred to Israel getting back all its land, including the land now occupied by the Palestinians, and they'd been asked if they thought that if the prophecy had said the land would be taken by force, it was OK for the modern Israeli army to move the Palestinians off their land by force, and they'd said yes. But the thing that would really make it a cause for concern would be if they were asked the question ten years later when they were young adults and they still said yes. That would be more of a concern than it would be when they were only children, because it would then be in their power to try to do something about it.

Likewise, if the Bible story of the invasion of Canaan had instead been about the subjugation of a race that very obviously still exists, like the Syrians, for example, and the Bible had said the Israelites were to wipe them out, it's possible that the children could have been under the impression that the command still applied, and that would be worrying.

As it is, though, the Jericho Experiment might not show what it's been taken to purport to show.

It seems that results of experiments can easily be assumed to mean something when they might in reality mean something else. To give an example, which is unrelated, but it illustrates the point:

There was a television programme on the BBC recently where a well-known brand of painkillers was tested against a cheaper, "generic" brand, which actually contained exactly the same ingredients. They wanted to find out if the placebo effect would kick in if people took the more expensive, well-known brand, because they trusted it more. They asked a group of rugby players to take them and then put their hands in icy water to see how long they could bear to keep them in it for. They all took the expensive brand first. Some time later, they took the cheaper brand and put their hands in icy water again.

They couldn't keep their hands in it for as long the second time. It was concluded that that meant the more expensive brand was more effective because of its placebo effect. But what if it actually meant that what made them less able to bear their hands being in the icy water the second time was the anxiety and anticipation of knowing how much their hands were going to begin to hurt the longer they left them in it?

In order to draw a more accurate conclusion about the placebo effect, it would have been better to repeat the experiment with different people, only this time giving them the cheap brand of painkiller first, to see if when they later took the expensive one, they had equal trouble keeping their hands in the icy water for as long as they did the first time. If they did, the placebo effect could be ruled out.

Reading Bible stories about the activities of the ancients is very different to what happens in some mosques, where people are taught to hate present-day non-believers/Jews/Westerners. For instance, I mentioned in a post yesterday that there was a programme on the BBC recently where a Muslim was talking about how he was brought up in England, but got into drugs and went to Pakistan to try to get rehabilitated. His rehabilitation programme worked to get him off drugs, but they taught the people there to use guns and filled them with hatred. Some went to Afghanistan to fight for the Taliban after that. He came back to the UK, and then started to question what he'd been taught, because he didn't think it was right that he should be hating his former friends and those he grew up with. See a write-up of the programme: Pakistan madrassa mixes drugs rehab and fighter training.

So more questions would have to be asked before concluding that the children might be easily swayed to accept genocide by modern-day Israel. Even if they would be, might it not be to do with the general suggestibility of children, rather than any impact any one thing might have on them? After all, just think of the number of young adults who rushed into war at the outbreak of the First World War, without critically thinking about whether it was really a just war!
 

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