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The idea that climate scientists just want more funds

Joined
Oct 28, 2012
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So one idea propagated by denials like Patrick Moore, is that climate change researchers are just lying or exaggerating the climate threat so they can get more funds for more research.

This argument seems to open up a Pandora's box. After all, if climate scientists are doing this then surely it must happen with others. Could AIDs researchers be lying about the threat of HIV some they can get more funding. Heck, any time scientists suggest that something is a health/environmental problem, they must be treated with suspicion.
 
So one idea propagated by denials like Patrick Moore, is that climate change researchers are just lying or exaggerating the climate threat so they can get more funds for more research.

This argument seems to open up a Pandora's box. After all, if climate scientists are doing this then surely it must happen with others. Could AIDs researchers be lying about the threat of HIV some they can get more funding. Heck, any time scientists suggest that something is a health/environmental problem, they must be treated with suspicion.

"You can't trust anyone now a days- and that's the truth!"

Frankly I think these accusations are just a cynical attempt to manipulate public opinion and that most of the individuals hurling them don't even believe them. Those few who do probably are so greedy themselves that they can't understand that there are many people, not only scientists, who have higher motives than money.

Some of the key points as I see them are:

1. Grants seldom alter the personal income of scientists. The many scientists in "hard money" positions have their salaries determined and paid by their institution. They do not get paid more if they get a grant. Grant money does not go into their own pocketbook but goes instead to pay for supplies, equipment, the salaries of their helpers. etc. Some scientists are in "soft money" positions which exist only if they get a grant. But even here one grant usually maxes out their institution-mandated salary and they do not receive any more personal money if they get additional grant funding.

2. Lying to get more grants to do more research to publish more lies makes no sense at all. What would be the point? Obviously scientists want to do science, and that usually means getting grant money to pay for supplies, equipment, the salaries of their helpers. etc. However, doing science means at a very fundamental level finding out the truth. There are exceptions, but in the 40 years I've been in science easily over 95% of the scientists I've met do science to find the truth. Most scientists could have become lawyers, or accountants, or bankers, or medical doctors, or politicians for that matter if they simply wished to make money. But they went into science because they were curious about how things work. To find out the truth is... What on earth would be the point of getting a grant, buying equipment and supplies, hiring helpers, coming to work long hours each day and weekends, sweating through the experiments, supervising others, getting and analyzing the results, and working out the conclusions, if one is then just going to lie about it all? It would be the definition of a useless, meaningless life. Working in Burger King would be far more rewarding.

3. If scientists only cared about money, why wouldn't research denying climate change also pay out? Couldn't they get paid even more by the vast industries and wealthy people who would fund them to conclude that there is no human-initiated climate change?

The last point is what I find most amazing about these accusations: the accusers are saying that scientists are willing to sacrifice their integrity and honor for the relatively minute amount of money that they can obtain in grants to study climate change, and presume that they would only get grants if they confirm that climate change is happening. But these same accusers instead trust the large companies and wealthy individuals whose huge profits, and personal income of their management, depend to a significant degree on denying human-mediated climate change.

Bottom line in these accusations: you can't trust scientists. But you can trust Exxon and the Koch brothers. Sure.
 
Yeah right. And cops don't have quotas either. But the Sargeants and the city like that ol' revenue.

But whatever you do for a living, you look better to your bosses if you make an occasional sale.

Like you would ever hear "Sorry Professor Johnson, we don't need a bigger budget. You're fired".
 
Yeah right. And cops don't have quotas either. But the Sargeants and the city like that ol' revenue.

But whatever you do for a living, you look better to your bosses if you make an occasional sale.

Like you would ever hear "Sorry Professor Johnson, we don't need a bigger budget. You're fired".

I presume you don't buy into what I've observed and lived for 40 years? Because it just sound too good huh? Well I already stated that cynics may not accept that there are many people, including scientists, who have higher motives than money. I tried to explain why going into science is a pretty stupid thing to do if one is interested in money. But if you don't buy that there are people in the world who just care about discovering stuff, people who are thrilled about learning things that no one before them ever knew, people for whom finding out the truth is why they go to work every day and is at the core of their soul, people for whom lying about what they discover is morally repugnant and would make their lives meaningless, I don't know how to convince you. I see it every day; you don't. And not seeing it is your loss, not mine. Because seeing it makes an otherwise pretty dark world a little shinier for me.

I am not suggesting scientists are saints. Like all people they can be self-deluded, be petty, be egotistic, seek to get ahead, grab credit, battle with competitors, and yes, some even lie. But as a group they do care a lot about truth and relatively little about money. And often about helping other people. At my work I see scientists in cancer research working 12 hour days and on weekends to discover what goes wrong and how to fix it. They don't get paid overtime and they are not going to be personally monetarily rewarded if they do discover something new and important. They will just have to take pleasure in knowing they had made an impact. And if not for people as dedicated as they for so little personal reward, i would have died of my neoplasia years ago. I am certain most climate researchers have a similar commitment to truth and a dream of helping others at an even grander scale. So I am a believer in the essential good of many people. And I don't sneer at them. I thank them.
 
I never said they are wrong or lying. I just said that claiming they are not interested in grants is stupid.

Which adds the possibility of motives added to the seeking of truth. So adding a bit of "interpretation" here or there? More grants, bigger staff, a raise perhaps? An offer from a better institution maybe? Didn't even Mann admit to exaggerating the impact- to get the public motivated?
 
I never said they are wrong or lying. I just said that claiming they are not interested in grants is stupid.

Which adds the possibility of motives added to the seeking of truth. So adding a bit of "interpretation" here or there? More grants, bigger staff, a raise perhaps? An offer from a better institution maybe? Didn't even Mann admit to exaggerating the impact- to get the public motivated?

So what other groups of scientists are doing this? AIDS researchers? Cancer researchers? Or are you just doing a special pleading for the sciences who are coming to conclusions you don't like.
 
So adding a bit of "interpretation" here or there? More grants, bigger staff, a raise perhaps? An offer from a better institution maybe?

How much for adding a bit of "interpretation" here or there that suggests that, well, although we've got a problem with global warming, it's not as bad as everyone thinks and we could just keep on pumping oil for a few years more? Seems to me that there could be a lot more funding on offer there from some grateful oil companies.

Dave
 
How much for adding a bit of "interpretation" here or there that suggests that, well, although we've got a problem with global warming, it's not as bad as everyone thinks and we could just keep on pumping oil for a few years more? Seems to me that there could be a lot more funding on offer there from some grateful oil companies.

Dave
Don't count on it. I actually contacted a couple oil companies. The angle is that every ton of CO2 sequestered in the soil in carbon farming offsets a ton than can be emitted without harm. Given the rate of 5-20 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr it would allow a relatively large usage of fossil fuels while still holding a zero carbon footprint, .... if done on enough land. It's the dream solution for an oil company actually trying to avoid all the regulatory burden proposed by the likes of Al Gore, yet actually can turn a profit instead of an economy shrinking tax and spend that would force the fossil fuel companies to foot the bill.

So my potential alternative would be a godsend for them actually if it worked.

No one single peep from them...nada...

So they are apparently happy spending millions on denialism propaganda campaigns rather than actually approaching the problem with research and development of practical solutions.
 
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Yeah, climate scientists can be a real nuisance in college towns, always dragging Main in their Lambos. Usually with a trophy wife beside them, or boy-toy, as the case may be :rolleyes:
 
So they are apparently happy spending millions on denialism propaganda campaigns rather than actually approaching the problem with research and development of practical solutions.

That's exactly of the point. Climate scientists are being accused of a giant conspiracy to make money by exaggerating the effects of fossil fuel use on climate change; yet, in fact, the real money to be made is in understating the effects of fossil fuel use because that's what the oil companies are more than happy to pay scientists to do. So, in effect, it's a conspiracy to be paid less money. Like so many conspiracy theories, this one requires that the conspirators be fiendishly clever yet at the same time absurdly stupid.

Dave
 
Climate scientists go all wrong about how to raise research funds. They should act like a cabal of supervillains hold the Earth hostage unless their demands of reduced carbon emissions are met.
 
That's exactly of the point. Climate scientists are being accused of a giant conspiracy to make money by exaggerating the effects of fossil fuel use on climate change; yet, in fact, the real money to be made is in understating the effects of fossil fuel use because that's what the oil companies are more than happy to pay scientists to do. So, in effect, it's a conspiracy to be paid less money. Like so many conspiracy theories, this one requires that the conspirators be fiendishly clever yet at the same time absurdly stupid.

Dave
That assumes the sole motivation is money. For example, a scientist can be motivated by environmentalism and be disgusted by what the oil industry does to the environment. They may be motivated by gaining prestige in environmental circles. So maybe they fudge a few things here and there to keep their work going and to increase their prestige in the field.

I am not saying this is happening (and I don't really believe it is) but it doesn't have to be all about the benjamins in order for some scientific fudging to occur.
 

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