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The Holocaust / Michael Shermer accused of fraud

benze

New Blood
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There is an organization called The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and Historians (web page - nafcash.com) that is offering a $100,000.00 reward for proving the "Treblinka Holocaust". They seem to be mocking Mr. Randi's million dollar challenge and are alleging that Dr. Shermer engaged in fruadulent scientific investingations when writing his book DENYING HISTORY.
Does anyone have any information on this organization or its president Greg Gerdes? This seems like it should be a very easy challenge to win, but that is what is bothering me. It just seems like it would be to easy. Does anyone have any ideas on how best to win this contest and shut these people up? Really, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE should have the information to win this. If you do, please let me or Dr. Shermer know.
The skeptic community needs to get together and help Dr. Shermer refute these allegations. Thanks for your time and effort.
 
There's nothing to refute, because the onus is not on Shermer, but on Gerdes.

I got an unsolicited email from Greg Gerdes a while ago with this "challenge". When I asked to see the evidence that the money actually existed, he started demanding that I proved him wrong re. his own claims first. I never saw any evidence that any money exists.

It sure didn't go to a decent looking website...

Same old manure.

:rolleyes:
 
benze said:
There is an organization called The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and Historians [...]
Click to expand...
Maybe there isn't such an organization, just as there is no Landover Baptist Church.
 
There is certainly a website nafcash.com


It contains a report of a ground radar survey at Treblinka which found no evidence of disturbed soil , followed by an increasingly vituperative attack on Shermer , using lots and lots of UPPER CASE.

And we all know what that means.

The site itself does not seem to include the groundscan data apart from one scan profile, lacking scale or data and which could have come from anywhere.

The website is apparently on a server in the New Orleans area. It was down for a couple of days last week.
ETA-the radar scan was reportedly done by one R.Krege, assoiciated with this body-
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/
Mr. Krege hails from Canberra.

Perhaps some of our Australian members can supply further details?
 
Yes, I take your point. If this is a joke though, it's in rather poorer taste. It doesn't hurt to ask.
 
Soapy Sam said:
If this is a joke though, it's in rather poorer taste.
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A hoax is not necessarily a joke. A hoax could be part of a conspiracy. Anyone who claims to speak on behalf of "The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and Historians" could be asked to prove that such an organization exists. Once information about the alleged organization is provided, one can look for inconsistencies in the information.
 
I suppose a joke could also be part of a conspiracy.

It's perfectly possible neither of the organisations mentioned exists in any real sense. One or two people may be it. Possibly no ground radar survey was ever done.
However, the websites , manifestly do exist.
And rather nasty they are, in my view.


One possible way to find out more is to simply ask if anyone knows anything about the persons named therein. Which is what benze has done. That seems like a valid step to me.

Do you have any reason to think thisis a hoax? If so , do you have any theory about who would do this, or to what end?
 
Uhhhh..folks...

This so called organization, in addition to providing no information about itself on its own website and posting a bunch of holocaust denial tripe, claims to have the words 'Scientific Method' registered as a trademark.

:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by benze
This seems like it should be a very easy challenge to win, but that is what is bothering me. It just seems like it would be to easy.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't it be highly difficult? The Nafcash seem unlikely to accept anything short of actually digging up the graves in front of their eyes as evidence, which sounds illegal to me.
 
What's sad is that the first few links from google are anti-graves at Treblinka sites. So anyone looking it up will automatically assume...

eta: from the NAF site:

"Since Michael Shermer (the “Skeptics” Society founder who believes in *magically* disappearing Jews) has such disdain for REAL skeptics (i.e. - intelligent / logical people who refuse to believe that millions of Jews can vanish from the face of the earth without leaving a trace), "

Does he really think that there was no trace at all? "Magically disappearing Jews"??

That's not conspiracy, that's blinkered insanity.
 
Soapy Sam said:
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/
Mr. Krege hails from Canberra.

Perhaps some of our Australian members can supply further details?
Click to expand...
Not really. A quick search turns up this, which is a bit old: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p-6_Adelaide.html

And their little quote from Lightfoot (Adelaide's founder) is so grossly misplaced and misrepresentative it's hilarious. They have literally taken an architect's quote and applied it to world politics. Wunch of bankers. :rolleyes:

Seems to be just a tiny little bunch of raving antisemite nutters, patting each other on the back and stopping only just a tiny smidgin short of shouting Heil Hitler! all the time. I don't recall them ever making the news, even when David Irving was publicly denied a visa recently. I guess they don't get out much. ;)

Incidentally, Adelaide has a long history of German immigration from the 1800's, but these families just aren't of this breed of stupidity.
 
Thanks, Zep. It does make interesting reading, though I find I have a strange urge to take a shower after reading it...
 
Has no one noticed that the "Ground Penetrating Radar Scan" image is actually one of those Magic Eye 3d pictures?
 
Soapy Sam said:
There is certainly a website nafcash.com


It contains a report of a ground radar survey at Treblinka which found no evidence of disturbed soil , followed by an increasingly vituperative attack on Shermer , using lots and lots of UPPER CASE.

And we all know what that means.
Click to expand...
"Before we all rush this guy, I gotta warn ya - he's got his Caps Lock on!"
 
Hello everyone,
Please, lets be adults about this. I don't care about Mr. Gerdes's use of caps. I'm not interested in accusations about antisemitism. I'm not even interested in the money per se. And yes CFLarsen, there is something to refute (Lets not turn the skeptical method on its head, it will only make us look foolish).
Mr. Gerdes/nafcash are skeptical about the Treblinka Holocaust. They have offered a very convincing skeptical arugument along with an alternate thesis and they have put thier money where their mouths are. (As skeptics, isn't that what we are all supposed to be willing to do?). They are simply asking for proof. Lets not attack them for doing what we do all the time!
What I'm interesed in is finding flaws in their logic and historiography. If you think you have something that I can use, please let me know. If not, please keep the childish personal attacks to yourself. We are supposed to be above that.
I would like to have some solid facts and figures at my fingertips before I email this guy and attempt to win their challenge. Can anyone help me locate such facts and figures? Thanks.
 
benze said:
This seems like it should be a very easy challenge to win, but that is what is bothering me. It just seems like it would be to easy.
Click to expand...

from the nafcash website...

"LOCATE THE ALLEGED MASS GRAVES OF TREBLINKA. YOU MUST SCIENTIFICALLY – FORENSICALLY PROVE THE NUMBER OF GRAVES, THEIR EXACT LOCATION, DIMENSIONS, VOLUME AND DENSITY. THE NUMBER OF REMAINS MUST TOTAL AT LEAST –
870,000"


yeah Benze, piece of cake...too easy! Prove the number of graves, exact location, dimensions, volume and density all for a reward of 11 cents per grave!

of course, assuming the 100,000 reward even exists.
 
benze said:
Hello everyone,
Please, lets be adults about this. I don't care about Mr. Gerdes's use of caps. I'm not interested in accusations about antisemitism. I'm not even interested in the money per se. And yes CFLarsen, there is something to refute (Lets not turn the skeptical method on its head, it will only make us look foolish).
Click to expand...

What, exactly, is there to "refute"?

benze said:
They have offered a very convincing skeptical arugument along with an alternate thesis and they have put thier money where their mouths are. (As skeptics, isn't that what we are all supposed to be willing to do?).
Click to expand...

Yeah. Only problem is, Gerdes has offered absolutely no proof that he has the money. When I asked him for this - repeatedly - he dodged the question completely.

What does that tell you?
 
In early 1943, the pits were opened, the dead removed and the remains burned on open air grates. After the graves had been emptied, the ashes were mixed with soil and reburied. The camp was razed in November 1943 and serious attempts were made to erase all traces of its existence.

And of course there is testimony from German guards that mass extermination took place there. I'm sure the deluded fool who runs that website will say they were coerced.

The very nature of the challenge, that you have to find at least 870,000 graves shows how insincere it is. If I claim 2900 people died on 9/11 and you say you'll give me $1,000,000 if I can prove it by showing you 2900 bodies I'll blow you off. Bodies were incinerated in the twin towers.

The people in Treblinka were incinerated as well. It would be impossible to determine the number of graves let alone find the exact number that are claimed to have been killed there.

Why Shermer doesn't address this? Maybe he should. It's easy enough to do.

You see benze, people who believe in holocaust denial are inherently stupid and racist. They are usually some loser who has found the only way they can draw attention to themselves is by making outlandish claims. It's the same with people who claim we didn't land on the moon or the government knew about the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor. They are intellectually lazy and or seeking attention by making foolish claims that feed on people's mistrust of government, racist tendencies and other factors.

And that guy would generate more interest if he can prove the money exists like Randi can and does.
 
The Treblinka Holocaust

"What, exactly, is ther to refute"? Well

1) Allegations that Dr. Shermer is a fraud.
2) Allegations that the Treblinka Holocaust is a hoax.

People, lets forget about the money for a moment. As skeptics, are we not supposed to see evidence for something before we believe? I cannot find fault with nafcash for asking to see such evidence. That does not make me a defender of nafcash.
I started out trying to come to the aid of Dr. Shermer and refute nafcash. However, I cannot give up common sense and the skeptical method and resort to childish emotionl arguments in trying to win the Treblinka challenge or the forensic challenge. I/we need scientific proof to do so (If only to shut them up and make them go away). I will worry about the money later.
Please, can someone somewhere tell me of a scientific investigation that proves the Treblinka holocaust?
 
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