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The Haggard tragedy

Richard

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The facts need no repeating. Especially painful to contemplate is the video being shown widely on the net, where aggressively atheistic Darwinist Richard Dawkins interviews Ted Haggard, who is seen staunchly arguing with Dawkins against evolution (obviously recorded before these sad revelations).

more..

http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4753
 
You should have put quotation marks around that, Richard. I thought it was you saying that until I read (someof) the lined page. :eye-poppi
 
Amazing, Richard. Carl Wieland has his nose punched by reality, yet STILL insists it is just "sudden hardening of the air right in front of him".

It's GOT to be something to do with money... No other explanation.
 
" it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

MACBETH , SCENE V
 
Scary Fundamentalist Loons said:
It is an obvious fact (one that no amount of sinning by any professed creationists can affect) that no-one who stands for the authority of the Bible in the area of six-day creation will simultaneously be found lobbying for the diminution of biblical authority in other areas, such as the ordination of homosexual clergy, for example.
Odd... for some reason, he left out "slave-owning laws" on that list of Biblical authority...

Wonder why?

:D


Edit: Oh, here it is:

One needs to remember that all of the advances in society which we look back on with favour—the abolition of slavery and child labour... have all come about directly from the light of the Gospel being allowed to permeate the culture, despite the failings of individual believers.
Apparently the light of the Gospel is against slavery, whatever the text of the book says. That's good to know.
 
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Apparently the light of the Gospel is against slavery, whatever the text of the book says. That's good to know.

It should be pointed out that the parts of the Bible that describe slavery in a positive light are not in the Gospels, but in the Old Testament.
 
It should be pointed out that the parts of the Bible that describe slavery in a positive light are not in the Gospels, but in the Old Testament.
Well, not exactly. Bible interpretation is notoriously fluid.

Ephesians 6

5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

Not exactly the advice most of us would give to slaves today. There are several similar verses. While it may not seem to us to show slavery "in a positive light," the pre-Civil war slaveholders of the US certainly claimed it did. There's also a vague implication that it's better to be a Christian's slave than to be a free pagan African, and much was made of that.
 
" it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

MACBETH , SCENE V

Never forget the act! (It's V, scene v--I had to look this one up because I forgot where it was from, precisely). I'm no Shakespeare scholar but I don't see how this applies. Comparing Haggard's undoing to Macbeth's is unfair to Macbeth!

As opposed to how Macbeth vocalizes his tragedy, Haggard's downfall signifies a great deal, precisely because there was never anything heroic about him as a figure; he was always completely a charlatan, a creep and a villain...then he got caught. Seems more like a comedy to me.

Liken
 
It should be pointed out that the parts of the Bible that describe slavery in a positive light are not in the Gospels, but in the Old Testament.
But the parts that condemn homosexuality are also in the Old Testament.
 
It should be pointed out that the parts of the Bible that describe slavery in a positive light are not in the Gospels, but in the Old Testament.

We're always told that the new testament should be followed and overrules the old testament, which is basically kept as a bit of background reading, which is why we are apparently not supposed to keep slaves or kill everyone from a different village. But somehow no-one ever manages to explain why we are still supposed to believe in creation or hate gays, when that is all from the old testament as well.
 
But the parts that condemn homosexuality are also in the Old Testament.

And the new, there are versed in Romans which condemn homosexuality, and some verses of Corinthians which can be interpreted that way. Mind you Corinthians also contains passages which say than men having long hair is ungodly, which make the standard image of Jesus and the Turin shroud even more suspect than they already where.
 
We're always told that the new testament should be followed and overrules the old testament, which is basically kept as a bit of background reading, which is why we are apparently not supposed to keep slaves or kill everyone from a different village. But somehow no-one ever manages to explain why we are still supposed to believe in creation or hate gays, when that is all from the old testament as well.

That's such a simple one I'm surprised people are asking it. The Old Testament is not a monolithic text. There are numerous components, and distinctions between them. The story of Creation is part of the history, and as such, not subject to modification. It simple describes what happened (albeit in more metaphorical language than the fundies like to believe). The commands given to the Hebrews regarding purging the various pagan tribes in the land were part of the Old Covanent, the Covanent of Holiness; and were for a specific place and time. There is no indication that it was ever intended as anything more than that.

The important and controversial part is the Halachah, the Law. But even that is not monolithic. There are multiple components to the Law as well. The Aseret ha-Dvarîm, also known as the Ten Commandments, is the foundation for all the Law. This could be considered the most important out of all the Law, and isn't changed by the New Covanent.

Then there is the "ceremonial law" regarding religious observations, social laws for jurisprudence and mediating disputes, and so on. These are collected and elaborated upon in the Talmud. Some of the ceremonial, such as the kosher laws, had purposes beyond the mere symbolic; but many were simply that.

The Covanent described in the New Testament superceded the ceremonial laws, and decanted the underlying principle of the entirety of all Laws down into two fundamental laws - love G-d with all your being, and love everyone else as much as yourself. "From these proceed all the Law and the Prophets." It did not abolish the Law, it clarified it and it's true purpose. The rest is merely elaboration and explanation of specifics.

And the new, there are versed in Romans which condemn homosexuality, and some verses of Corinthians which can be interpreted that way. Mind you Corinthians also contains passages which say than men having long hair is ungodly, which make the standard image of Jesus and the Turin shroud even more suspect than they already where.

Actually, the verse refers to a man having his hair "as a woman's". It did not specify length, which was similar for men and women, except insofar as men shaved their heads for certain religious ceremonies. It's referring more to the adornments, perfumes, and styles common to women of the time. It is in a similar context to those condeming a man wearing women's clothing, and is generally seen as a proscription against transvestism/transgenderism in a time and culture (Roman) where TV/TG prostitutes were commonplace.
 
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I read that creationist article. I shouldn't have been surprised, but they attempt to twist a major embarassment into a victory for their cause. According to the article, evolution actually contributed to the Haggard tragedy by making it easier for him to justify his actions. The article does ignore the fact that Haggard's problems are a reminder that many people wonder if all of these anti-gay evangelicals are secretly gay.

Another point they are missing is that married, straight men do not snort meth and have sex with male prostitutes! I don't know why Haggard likes guys but if there is a God, then it is because God made him that way. However, the article says he gave in to temptation and leaves it at that. Well, I know I'm tempted by sin but that's one kind of sin that never crosses my mind. Haggard is not a straight man but his faith forces him to deny who is really is. It's easy for me to laugh at Haggard for being a hypocrite but I also have some sympathy for him. I've known a couple of guys who were gay, but they refused to admit it to themselves because of their religion. It is a very sad way to live and I think it's more punishment than Haggard deserves. But it's Haggard's choice to either stay with the religion or break away and accept who he is. My guess is that he'll be declared 'restored' in a year or so, then go back to the way things were. Only this time, he'll be much more careful...
 
It is a very sad way to live and I think it's more punishment than Haggard deserves. But it's Haggard's choice to either stay with the religion or break away and accept who he is.

I couldn't help feeling sympathy for Haggard's kids.
 
The whole thing just makes me chuckle.

Just another example of hypocrisy, one rule for the congregation, but the preacher is allowed to do as he wishes, the rules don't apply to him as long as he doesn't get caught, but oops, he got caught.

If the holy roller, evangelical preachers ever showed any amount of humility then I might feel a little sorry for him, but they don't. He created his church and he had many choices in how it would be run. He did not have to be an evangelical preacher and in choosing to be one, he could have shown more compassion toward homosexuals, but he chose to preach in the way that would get him a nice chunk of followers, so that his church could bring in bucks.

The only reason I would feel sorry for his family is that they now have to deal with the fact that he is a big fat hypocrite. Whatever his sexuality is doesn't really matter.

As bjb says, I am betting too that he will repent and be restored to "the faith".

I am betting that the congregations will love him more for having fallen and returned to the right path. If he plays his cards right he can appear to gain humility and only grow in their esteem. He can do the "I had fallen but the power of the Lord saved me" shtick and just be bigger than ever. The only thing he will be missing is big old false eyelashes covered in mascara with it streaming down his crocodile tear covered face :p
 
It should be pointed out that the parts of the Bible that describe slavery in a positive light are not in the Gospels, but in the Old Testament.

And the parts condemning homosexuality are not in the Gospels either. But in other texts in both the new and old testament.

You are trying to argue for people who believe in a literal interpretation of genesis by saying that the parts that are pro slavery are in the old testament?
 
I love the "do what I say, not what I do" post-hoc justification.

However spun, Haggard agued that evolution and secularization were responsible for moral degeneracy. Yet he himself was presumeably free of both influences and still managed to be 'degenerate' by his own criteria.

And CotW's answer to this is "Hey, he's only human you know?!"
:confused:

Great, so then are all the other 'degenerates' out there and CotW will no doubt immediately stop blaming the state of the world on evolution, atheism, secular humanism, etc.

D'ya think?!
 

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