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The Gun Debate

merphie

Graduate Poster
Joined
Sep 11, 2004
Messages
1,890
I have realized most people seem to be uninformed on gun politics. Unfortunately most politicians seem not to have all the information.

A news organization's job to inform people of the facts of the situation accurately. The media organizations seem to have failed at this task. [Source: http://www.hillsdale.edu/newimprimis/default.htm]

First if we look at current laws we can see that the gun industry is heavily regulated by law and the BATF. The term “Assault Weapons” does not accurately describe any gun.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 bans all automatic weapons. This was later repealed and replaced by The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA).

The GCA banned all fully automatic weapons without a special Federal License. Some of the restrictions include prohibiting “sawed-off Shotguns”, rifle/shotgun sales to persons under 18, and handgun sales to people under 21. This means the people who robbed the bank in California with Automatic rifles possessed illegal guns. The guns they used had nothing to do with the 1994 law that expires on Monday, September 13, 2004.

The Firearm Owners’ Protection Act of 1986 protects the right of the citizens to keep in bear arms under the second amendment. It also reaffirmed the protection afforded under many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights. There is no question about the meaning of the Second Amendment.

The Undetectable Handgun law of 1988 made possession of a gun illegal that could not be detected by a x-ray machine. This law is completely worthless because from my knowledge there is no gun in existence that does not contain metal parts like the barrel.

The 1994 Public Safety and Recreation Firearms Use Protection Act (“The Crime Bill”) only banned 19 specific guns and certain characteristics of other guns. From statistics we can clearly see that the drop in crime was started before this law and has continued even with the increase of states issuing Concealed Carry Permits.

Today, everyone who purchases a firearm must pass a NCIC background instant check. Anyone who wishes to obtain a Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW) in Oklahoma must pass a county background check, state background check, and federal background check. The applicant must also have fingerprints taken; passport type photos, and attended a CLEET certified training on firearm use. There are many restrictions on where a concealed weapon maybe carried. For example, concealed weapons are not allowed in state buildings, schools, or in alcohol business. The rejection rates for NCIC check performed for gun purchases is only about 2% in 2001. [Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/bcft01.htm]

By definition “Criminals” perform actions that are illegal. The bank robbers in California broke four laws that I am aware of. They used a firearm in the commission of a felony, robbed a bank, possessed automatic firearms, and used body armor in the commission of a felony. None of these laws stopped them from performing the act. They were killed in commission of this crime so no charges were ever filed.

If we look at statistics from the Department of Justice we see that crime has been dropping since 1993. [Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm] We can also see that only 2% of criminals used an “Assault Weapon” in their crime. Most who committed a crime with a firearm also received an enhanced sentence. [Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fuo.htm] Gangs committed most homicides where a gun was used. [http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/circumst.htm#circumgun]

The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) also reflects the drop in crime. [Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm] From the NCVS we see that 80% of criminals obtain their guns through illegal means. [Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm] They rarely obtain a gun from a gun show or a licensed retailer. If we look at analysis of the NCVS we can see that guns are used defensively about 2.2 to 2.5 times a year. [Source: http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html] Unfortunately the police are not required to protect us from crime. This is clearly illustrated in cases such as “Warren vs. District of Columbia”.

I do not see a reason for a gun manufacturer to be liable for a criminal use of their product. Most of the cases that have been filed have been dismissed. This could be compared to suing Ford for someone using a Ford truck to run someone down. If a manufacturer can be shown to sell outside the law or a product that is not safe with proper use, I think they should be convicted or sued.

Some people tend to see the National Rifle Association (NRA) as a fanatical organization. I think if you actually look at the NRA position it makes sense and it has plenty of facts to support their position. No one seems to talk about the good things the NRA has done. This could include things such as “Project Exile” [Source: http://www.nrawinningteam.com/hestexil.html] (Which Enhances sentences for gun crimes) and the “Eddie the Eagle” [Source: http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/] (Which teaches kids gun safety).

Most people do not know just how regulated the gun industry is in the United States. The statistical data does not show the availability of guns to lawful citizens to be responsible for any drop or rise in crime. Guns help some victims, but no one can say that a victim having a gun would prevent all crimes. I do believe we should have the option of possessing a gun. There are plenty of lawful uses for gun aside from personal defense. This includes hunting and target shooting. Both of these activities require a lot of skill. They oppose any restrictions to the right of law-abiding citizens. This included gun registration. In history, gun registration usually leads to gun confiscation or the infringement of rights of specific groups of people. Since the civil war in the United States things like marriage licenses and gun registration were used to prevent African-Americans from certain activities. There are plenty of examples of this occurring as early as 1968. (Ref: “Deacons of Defense”)

The problem of crime in the United States is not the guns themselves, but the act of breaking the law itself. We should be focusing our attention on something that could help reduce crime further without infringing on the rights of law-abiding citizens.
 
Very good summary. The problem is that those that hate weapons per se. will take the position that "law abiding owners should not care" or "it can't do any harm" or "what do you need that for?" all of which beg the issue of the level of regulation and the basic nature of bad guys.

Incidentially, Connecticut seems the same as Oklahoma vis a vis carry permits. My recollection is that no permit is needed if you want to keep a handgun in your home, though to buy it you would need the check.

I might add to your list of references the CDC report to be found here

The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes. (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.)

The "note" is the gnashing of liberal teeth BTW.
 
Ed said:
Very good summary. The problem is that those that hate weapons per se. will take the position that "law abiding owners should not care" or "it can't do any harm" or "what do you need that for?" all of which beg the issue of the level of regulation and the basic nature of bad guys.

Incidentially, Connecticut seems the same as Oklahoma vis a vis carry permits. My recollection is that no permit is needed if you want to keep a handgun in your home, though to buy it you would need the check.

I might add to your list of references the CDC report to be found here

The "note" is the gnashing of liberal teeth BTW.

Oklahoma law also states no permit is needed to keep guns in their house. It clearly states that any Oklahoman can defend themselves if life is threatend or serious bodily harm. It also says that if someone enters your house (Break in for example) you have the right to assume they are armed and mean you great harm. Therefor you have the right to defend yourself by killing them. This is sometimes called the "Make My Day Law"

I have seen on this board many times where people attack someone personally when they can not attack their position. This is true everywhere.

I compiled a list of information from debates on this board. I posted my opinion to see if I could defend it. After all as skeptics we must challenge our own views even if it could prove us wrong. I have had to change some aspects of my stance. (I was incorrect on some details on UK laws)

While watching the news one night I saw several stories that were politically anti-gun and was a clear case of unfair reporting. I wrote that summary and sent to them. It's sad I had to do the research for them. Today they seem to have changed their tone and had an over all news story that accurately described the situation. I removed the parts that thanked them for their accurate news story.
 
List of Sources

Here is a list of all my sources that I have compiled so far. I want to thank Ed for the addition of the CDC article. I am including it so everyone can verify the information I have given.

Guns in General

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_cap
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/wuvc01.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/percentfirearm.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fuo.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm
http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html
http://www.fact-index.com/g/gu/gun_politics_1.html
http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html
http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html
http://caag.state.ca.us/cjsc/publications/homicide/homi98/tabs/hm98tb49.pdf

Effectiveness of law
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

Eddie the Eagle
http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

Project Exile
http://www.nrawinningteam.com/hestexil.html

Media Bias
http://www.hillsdale.edu/newimprimis/default.htm

Kerry
http://www.nrapvf.org/Kerry/default.aspx

(Incomplete research on foriegn countries)

UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/14/nmart14.xml
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00276-05.asp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3914289.stm
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hosb1101.pdf

AU
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi066.html
 
Politicians are rarely well-informed on the subjects they legislate--what can you expect, that they'd take time off from fundraising to do research?

I think there are two different tides in the gun opposition -- those who don't understand the current gun laws, and those who don't care about the current gun laws because they want to scrap them all anyway. Then you get the ones who are in favor of some guns and not others, and they have the tricky business of drawing a line and justifying it.

This causes problems when they all get together, because sometimes they seem to be calling for a repeal of the Second Amendment, and sometimes they're calling for certain guns to be illegal, and sometimes they don't know what they want, but have a horrific story about dead children to shock the listener with.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Politicians are rarely well-informed on the subjects they legislate--what can you expect, that they'd take time off from fundraising to do research?

I think there are two different tides in the gun opposition -- those who don't understand the current gun laws, and those who don't care about the current gun laws because they want to scrap them all anyway. Then you get the ones who are in favor of some guns and not others, and they have the tricky business of drawing a line and justifying it.

This causes problems when they all get together, because sometimes they seem to be calling for a repeal of the Second Amendment, and sometimes they're calling for certain guns to be illegal, and sometimes they don't know what they want, but have a horrific story about dead children to shock the listener with.

Agreed. For the most part I believe most people believe that guns should be owned by citizens and have some restrictions. Those who do not know gun laws typically seem to agree we have enough laws when they are made aware of what the gun laws show. IMHO

The tragic stories are just that and have no real bearing on political issues of guns. They make a strong impression on the viewer and are there by effective. Look at Michael Moore's work. (I refuse to call them documentries) They use a shock factor to show his point of view. There is little fact in them.
 
I would be interested if sceptics would respond to the stuff that is on TV today as the "assult weapon" ban fades away. I just heard Kerry referring to "military assult weapons". I can only assume that he is lieing.
 
Ed said:
I would be interested if sceptics would respond to the stuff that is on TV today as the "assult weapon" ban fades away. I just heard Kerry referring to "military assult weapons". I can only assume that he is lieing.

Haven't been near a TV today, but the news articles seem to concentrate on the horrific number of rounds each weapon can fire. I suppose they think it's possible to shoot 800 people a minute if your gun can fire 800 rounds a minute. But then, I get the feeling a lot of the anti-gun people have never fired a gun. I'm fairly neutral on the whole question, but at least I've tried it. And I'm amazed anyone can hit anything at all. It's a lot easier on Playstation.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Haven't been near a TV today, but the news articles seem to concentrate on the horrific number of rounds each weapon can fire. I suppose they think it's possible to shoot 800 people a minute if your gun can fire 800 rounds a minute. But then, I get the feeling a lot of the anti-gun people have never fired a gun. I'm fairly neutral on the whole question, but at least I've tried it. And I'm amazed anyone can hit anything at all. It's a lot easier on Playstation.

I agree. The military assault weapons means nothing. The military doesn't use Semi-Automatic weapons.

Civilians only can have a semi-auto weapon which fires one round for every depression of the trigger.

It is not easy to hit a target. Kerry seems to ignore that.
 
The term “Assault Weapons” does not accurately describe any gun.
That term does legally describe certain guns. This sentence contains a bit of the strawman, as no term ever necessarily accurately describes what it is supposed to. "Love" or "freedom", for example.

There is no question about the meaning of the Second Amendment.
One of the jobs of K-12 is to teach people how to read and comprehend. For you, K-12 seems to have failed at this task. If the media has taught us anything about the Second Amendment, it is that its meaning is HIGHLY questioned. See the title of your thread for details, with emphasis on the last word.

The Undetectable Handgun law of 1988 made possession of a gun illegal that could not be detected by a x-ray machine. This law is completely worthless because from my knowledge there is no gun in existence that does not contain metal parts like the barrel.
Such a gun is theoretically possible. Even if you think it's impossible to build a gun without metal parts, it's possible to shield the gun so that it cannot be detected by an x-ray machine. Therefore, the law is not worthless.

Today, everyone who purchases a firearm must pass a NCIC background instant check.
Not at gun and knife shows. Not on the black market. People who steal or are given guns are not covered. Speaking of worthless.

Now, about your statistics - is there an overall drop in crime, or specifically a drop in crime where a gun is used? For example, there could be a 85% reduction in burglaries and thefts, and a 80% drop in white collar crime, all while gun-related crime actually increases by 54% (source for figures: my ass). So the overall crime rate can be said to have dropped while gun-related crime is actually on the rise.

Have you or the figure-compilers factored in this stuff?

The statistical data does not show the availability of guns to lawful citizens to be responsible for any drop or rise in crime.
This is the most ridiculous comment in your entire post. OF COURSE it doesn't show anything - lawful citizens don't commit crimes!

about which:
We should be focusing our attention on something that could help reduce crime further without infringing on the rights of law-abiding citizens.
So are you also in favor of making all drugs legal?



I just heard Kerry referring to "military assult weapons". I can only assume that he is lieing.
Nope. Until the ban lapsed, only the military and the police could buy those weapons.
 
I wish to Hell that Kerry would not campaign on gun control issues. Howard Dean called it when he said that Gore lost (ie., would have gotten even more than half million more votes than Bush he got) on the gun control issue.

Gun control opponents vote on that issue. Gun control advocates do not vote on that issue. By simple formulation, it's a stinker all the way for Kerry. I'm not entirely Machiavellian about this -- I don't happen to think that non-voting constituencies deserve to be ignored. It's just that the effects of this law were not all that salutary anyway.

Get a goddamn brain, Kerry! Run like you want to win!
 
hgc said:
Get a goddamn brain, Kerry! Run like you want to win!

I worry that he's convinced he has to take the opposite of all of Bush's positions. Really, all he has to do is exist quietly as an alternative to Bush, but I guess he's not flattered by that and feels he has to say things. I wish he wouldn't.
 
Dorian Gray said:

Nope. Until the ban lapsed, only the military and the police could buy those weapons.

An "assault weapon" is a full auto military firearm. They have been and are illeagal. What Kerry is referring to is a semi-automatic weapon with certain decorator additions. They are not military and he knows better ergo a lie.
 
hgc said:
I wish to Hell that Kerry would not campaign on gun control issues. Howard Dean called it when he said that Gore lost (ie., would have gotten even more than half million more votes than Bush he got) on the gun control issue.

Gun control opponents vote on that issue. Gun control advocates do not vote on that issue. By simple formulation, it's a stinker all the way for Kerry. I'm not entirely Machiavellian about this -- I don't happen to think that non-voting constituencies deserve to be ignored. It's just that the effects of this law were not all that salutary anyway.

Get a goddamn brain, Kerry! Run like you want to win!

Kerry's judgement is emerging as a big issue for me. I would not generally vote against someone solely for an anti gun position but Kerry is rabble rousing. Bad form and yet another lapse in judgement.
 
Dorian Gray said:
That term does legally describe certain guns. This sentence contains a bit of the strawman, as no term ever necessarily accurately describes what it is supposed to. "Love" or "freedom", for example.

Sure. Does it? Which law? The 1994? I would have to look at the text to see if it mentions the term "assault weapon". Even if it did mention the media and Kerry are talking about guns that were not included on the 1994 ban. So they can't even give the definition straight. What is an "Assault Weapon"? Even you have danced around the issue by not giving a definition. To my knowledge there is no manufacturer who calls their product an "Assault Weapon".

One of the jobs of K-12 is to teach people how to read and comprehend. For you, K-12 seems to have failed at this task. If the media has taught us anything about the Second Amendment, it is that its meaning is HIGHLY questioned. See the title of your thread for details, with emphasis on the last word.

You study law in k-12? It seems to me that the only people who contest the meaning are those who ignore the "The Firearm Owners' Protection Act" or those who wish to ban all private ownership. I have made no claim as to the ability of the education system. My summary was based solely on facts.

Maybe they should teach comprehension? If it says "The right of the people to bear arms" How can there be a debate on facts? Those who believe it is a collective right must also believe the rest of the Bill of Rights is collective and not to the individual. You can't read the first sentence of something and proclaim you know the meaning of something.

The media doesn't teach anything.

Such a gun is theoretically possible. Even if you think it's impossible to build a gun without metal parts, it's possible to shield the gun so that it cannot be detected by an x-ray machine. Therefore, the law is not worthless.

Is such a gun possible? What can they use in the construction of a gun that could withstand the pressure and not be detected? Glass? The problem is shield is the same as conceal in this context. Concealed weapons are regulated.

Not at gun and knife shows. Not on the black market. People who steal or are given guns are not covered. Speaking of worthless.

Is this so? Have you EVER been to a gun show? That is something that the "Anti-gun" politics have said. There is no fact in that. Did you read where 2% come from gun shows? Did you even read the full post? You do not speak from truth on gun shows. I attend them on a regular basis and have bought many guns at them. Granted I can only speak of gun show vendors I have attended here. Which there is about 4 vendors who come here all the time. Some do shows outside of Oklahoma.

Black markets and stolen guns are covered because they are illegal acts. Guns that are given are covered. It is illegal to buy a gun for an individual who otherwise can not do so themself. It is illegal to have a gun that is accessible to a felon. My grandfather gave me his guns because he is no longer able to use them. He has his SSN engraved on them. Should he not have the right to give those weapons to someone who he trained and knows doesn't have a criminal record?

I know this information because the OSBI told my Father-in-Law he would have to turn in his CCW permit and get rid of his guns if his son was paroled on felony charges. My father in law asked me if I would keep his guns for him because of this.

Speaking from the uninformed.

Now, about your statistics - is there an overall drop in crime, or specifically a drop in crime where a gun is used? For example, there could be a 85% reduction in burglaries and thefts, and a 80% drop in white collar crime, all while gun-related crime actually increases by 54% (source for figures: my ass). So the overall crime rate can be said to have dropped while gun-related crime is actually on the rise.

Have you or the figure-compilers factored in this stuff?

Did you even read any of it? Could be, could be not. There could be a flying pig out there that we have simply not seen. Your opinion is noted, but you do not have one fact to back anything up.

Look at the numbers. An overal drop but the numbers also show violent crimes have dropped as well. Is this not good enough for you? Guns do not cause crime. They do not make good people go bad.

This is the most ridiculous comment in your entire post. OF COURSE it doesn't show anything - lawful citizens don't commit crimes!

No what is ridiculous is the "Gun Control Laws". Why make laws that would take guns away from lawful citizens? That is all the 1994 did. All the "gun control" laws due is restrict law abiding citizens. That is fact. I made no statement in that post that I could not backup with facts.

about which: So are you also in favor of making all drugs legal?

A better question, "is what can we do to reduce drug use?" Should we imprision non-violent offenders for the rest of their life over drugs? I would be in favor of making them legal. The war on drugs is not effective and cost us billions. It is failing and new solution needs to be brought in. The drug programs did not have a sustained effect on drug use. I believe it is the parents responsibility to keep their kids off drugs. Not the government. I don't believe we can fix the drug problem by throwing users and dealers in jail. It doesn't work.

Nope. Until the ban lapsed, only the military and the police could buy those weapons.

The military uses Automatic weapons. The police may buy semiauto weapons, but they are not military. So the term is still meaningless. If you want to give opinion that is fine, but you need to state it as such.
 
hgc said:
I wish to Hell that Kerry would not campaign on gun control issues. Howard Dean called it when he said that Gore lost (ie., would have gotten even more than half million more votes than Bush he got) on the gun control issue.

Gun control opponents vote on that issue. Gun control advocates do not vote on that issue. By simple formulation, it's a stinker all the way for Kerry. I'm not entirely Machiavellian about this -- I don't happen to think that non-voting constituencies deserve to be ignored. It's just that the effects of this law were not all that salutary anyway.

Get a goddamn brain, Kerry! Run like you want to win!

So it would be better to support a position and not tell people you do? Wouldn't that be consider lying? Oh wait! He does EXACTLY that!
 
Dorian Gray said:
Such a gun is theoretically possible. Even if you think it's impossible to build a gun without metal parts, it's possible to shield the gun so that it cannot be detected by an x-ray machine. Therefore, the law is not worthless.


Can you post a link to construction of a non-metallic gun? I suppose you could build something pnumatic that could concieveably be lethal. Remember non-metallic means no cartridge (brass and lead). BTW this would not be defined as a firearm.

Can you tell us how you shield a pound of steel from a magnetometer? What, exactly, is the shielding material? How much would you need? What is the source of this assertion?

This sounds very much like anti-gun hysteria.
 
If it says "The right of the people to bear arms"
'To bear arms' did not mean the same thing when it was written what you think it does now. It means 'joining a militia'. With that meaning the whole second amendment suddenly makes sense and there is no contradiction with the 'a well regulated militia' part anymore.

Here is a pro-gun site that acknowledges that 'to bear arms' most likely had a military meaning and so if you leave out the 'keep' you make it into an amendment that says nothing about personal gun ownership.
Those who believe it is a collective right must also believe the rest of the Bill of Rights is collective and not to the individual.
It is a personal right, and it is the right to own a gun (keeping arms) and join a militia (bearing arms).
 
Such a gun is theoretically possible. Even if you think it's impossible to build a gun without metal parts, it's possible to shield the gun so that it cannot be detected by an x-ray machine.
I'm skeptical about this magic gun. I think it might be possible to make a non-metalic gun. I remember an episode of X-Files (I think) where some terrorist had a wooden gun. That was cool!

But I don't see how you can make a gun that has metalic parts and encase it in some material that makes it impossible to detect with an X-ray machine. This is because metals are detected because they shield X-rays themselves. So the material you put it in would have to make the metal somehow transparent for X-Rays. That's a bit like making a brick invisible by putting in glass!

I never cease to be amazed by what science can offer us, but what you are describing must be some sort of cloaking device.
 

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