The God Fuse

David Wong

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Sep 9, 2006
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Ten Things Christians and Atheists Can - and Must - Agree On

Some of you know me; I've hung around the Conspiracy subforum for months after doing an article on 9/11 conspiracies and I wrote this one partly with you guys in mind (as you'll see).

For those of you who don't know me, I have sort of a crude sense of humor and you'll see it here, too. But hopefully it will still be nice fuel for discussion.

If not, I'll watch this poor thread fall rapidly off the index page. I will embrace that sad fate with courageous resignation.

The article is HERE.
 
Thanks David,

I really enjoyed your article. As one who used to preach a kinder and gentler atheist movement I think that you have made some great points. I will have to say though that I have come 180 degrees in my view of how to address the issues. I think what we need right now more than anything is dialog and the raising of consciousness about the issues. I think we need to ruffle feathers and break eggs. While there are clearly limits of propriety I think we can argue about what those limits are while moving forward. At this moment in time I don't think Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens et al, have gone too far. I think we need to shake things up and start a discussion and that is happening. My poly sci teacher taught that inertia is seldom if ever changed by moderates.

I'm not for the holding of hands and singing Kumbia at the moment. I'm not worried about a back lash. Yes there is the start of a backlash. Yes there will be negative impact from that. But that is not a reason not to attack current conventional wisdom. That is what the moderates were preaching during the civil rights era. There was a backlash then but in the end it paid off.

Call me Dick if you want but let's get the party started. Let's discuss and debate. That's not going to happen with kid gloves on.
 
Let's see where you're wrong.

"Celebrating the death of someone you disagree with makes you a dick."

No, it doesn't. For example, when Falwell died, the world lost a guy who promoted racism, religious bigotry and homophobia. The world became a better place. That's reason to celebrate.

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

No, people have never killed in the name of atheism. Atheism has no philosophy, belief system or dogma that tells anyone to do anything. To kill in the name of atheism is like saying a person killed in the name of not believing in pixies.

2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying

Agreed, otherwise, why say it?

3. In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different

depends on the person, job and other factors. I can't say you're right here.

4. There Are Good People on Both Sides

MOTO, however, I know a few christians that seem to think all atheists are bad people.

5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them

Offensive to them? Yes. Legitimately, no. The christians have absolutely no good reason to be offended by my inability to believe their nonsense.

6. We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy

I can't agree with this either. We might often pick out the extreme cases, but that's not exaggeration.

7. We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too

I doubt it. You're wrong that atheists think of themselves as islands of pure rational thought.


8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid

No, it does not. It makes your case. Christians often claim monopoly on morality and that a person can't be moral without jesus, yet the vast majority of criminals are christian. Pointing out the negatives proves them wrong on the morality claim that believing in jesus makes people good.

9. Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table

Agreed. But this "philosophy behind atheism" doesn't exist. There is no philosophy behind atheism, no belief system or forumula. Atheism is simply the doubt of the claim " there is a god."

10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence

Agreed, we need to take more extreme measures.
















 
Let's see where you're wrong.

"Celebrating the death of someone you disagree with makes you a dick."

No, it doesn't. For example, when Falwell died, the world lost a guy who promoted racism, religious bigotry and homophobia. The world became a better place. That's reason to celebrate.
Prove that the world is a better place. I do think it is a given that his death will be for the best. Who is taking his place.

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

No, people have never killed in the name of atheism. Atheism has no philosophy, belief system or dogma that tells anyone to do anything. To kill in the name of atheism is like saying a person killed in the name of not believing in pixies.
This completely misses the point of the issue he raised. The classic examples of atheistic killings (Stalin for one) was (I agree) more about nationalism. But atheism was still a part of it. And even if their were no historical examples of athiest led mass killings. That still doesn't mean it isn't possible. Consider the extension of atheism into anti-theism. It can easily become a focal point of killings.

So the statement that "You can do terrible things.." is true. What isn't true is that atheism and theism are EQUAL in their ability to result in terrible things.
 
Prove that the world is a better place. I do think it is a given that his death will be for the best. Who is taking his place.

This completely misses the point of the issue he raised. The classic examples of atheistic killings (Stalin for one) was (I agree) more about nationalism. But atheism was still a part of it.
When I first came to this forum I made the argument that Atheism was a causal component for the attrocities of Mao, Stalin and others. However I was unable to establish any such relationship. Saying that is a part of it doesn't really tell us anything. Can you establish a cause and effect relationship?
 
Yeah I agree with most of your responses thaiboxerken. In regard to point 1 David, it is certainly possible for an atheist to do terrible things - but these are not (so far we've seen historically) perpetrated by means of invoking justification in terms of the atheist philosophy. This is in marked contrast to the terrible things which have been perpetrated "in the name of <insert deity>". You ask us only to cede the possibility of such, and of course its "possible", but your case would be stronger if the historical record actually showed roughly equal numbers of such incidents from both sides of the fence. Citing Stalin and Mao is simply naive - I wouldn't hold that every incident of genocide which happens to be led by someone who believes in God is because of that belief, and in particular they may well perpetrate their evil without inciting others "using" the belief. Then again, as we know, there are situations in which they do.
 
I think there is a real error in assuming that atheism and theism are simply opposite sides of the same coin. They are not. There is no dogma that would compel an atheist to strap on explosives and kill people. There is ideological dogma that atheists can accept that would cause them to murder people but that is the fault of the ideology and not atheism.
 
I'd hate to continue the disagreement of the article here. I inducted from reading the article that you can only compare and contrast superficial aspects of any given argument, and so I fear that any caution I could give would be useless unless I somehow worded in a miraculously simply way. I don't believe in miracles, but I do believe in critical honesty, so maybe I can be of some help to you.

My first complaint about the article is that it has two immediate and non-intellectual qualities right from the start: it has an ambiguous and misleading title, and the very first noun you use and proliferate on is 'war'. If you are going to communicate your opinion, why be so sensational about it to label it a war? It is over-used metaphorical hype, you know this. And why have such an ambiguous title? That is the first rule in 'bad journalism'. I get the impression from this opening that I will have to read thoroughly to disentangle your opinion from the facts you present, as well as be very skeptical of how much bias went into your selection of the facts and items in comparison.

"Celebrating the death of somebody you disagreed with pretty much makes you a dick."

While I agree with this statement, I only agree with it if the definiton of 'disagree' is sensible. If I do not agree with their opinions, their death I will probably take on a scale of my intimacy with them. If I do not agree with their actions -- which means if I believe they have committed horrible actions in their life -- I will probably take comfort that there is one less person I despise in the world. My Aunt Kathy is an overly-excited Evangelical Christian who lives a simply life, and while she tries to convert people, her actions are generally not so bad. Now:

that thing I said I said earlier about not celebrating the death of somebody you disagree with... that still counts for a bitter, uncompromising old fart like Falwell, right? We're civilized people. We can celebrate him changing his mind, or even celebrate him being made to look like a fool in public.

But you start cheering his death, you've walked away from the one single baseline every remotely moral person has ever agreed on: the value of human life.

You see, you are conflating the two. We do not cherish his death like we would "cherish my Aunt Kathy's death". We cherish his death like we would "cherish Uri Geller's death". Falwell had differing beliefs than us, but it is actions that we despise. He was a catalyst for making the United States a theocracy. This fact is not negotiable: all evidence about his actions suggest his attention to make our nation a Christian Nation.

As I said, you seem to look only superficially at people reacting to his death, and you entirely miss the point of "why people react."

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One.

Outspoken atheists are motivated to relinquish dogmatism by education people away from their beliefs. We do not want to change capitalism or our country. Stalin enforced dogmatism. Mao enforced dogmatism. We do not want to 'win' by forcing people to dogmatically become atheist. Our weapon is ARGUMENT. Please understand this. We believe that atheism and agnosticism is more rational than religion, and we are not simply 'having faith' on this. We believe dogmatic religion has caused a lot of suffering, and we are not simply 'having faith' on this. We are very willing to debate people.

I think you are again peering too superficially into the motivation of atheism. To help you think more clearly on our motivation, do not see the atheist movement as simply as you have been seeing it. If there is an active atheist 'manifesto', it is this: To replace dogmatism with reason and skepticism. To open religion up to the same sort of critical thinking as everything else. To replace fundamental religious morals with deeper ethical arguments and discussions.

I'd go on, but I'm kind of tired of reading the article. I'm honestly sorry about that. I've got a short attention span when I've been drinking.
 
How does one prove a subjective opinion? Would you like for me to prove that spinach tastes good too?
By Proving that biogtry, racism, religious bigotry and homophobia will reduce in the world because of his death. Personally, I always thought his comments over the past 10 years did more to hurt his cause than help.

His katrina comments, his comments about the tellitubbies, brougth light to the absurdity of his views. He became an unintentional Steven Colbert.

So, from the politcal stance, to cellebrate his death does make that person a jerk.
 
When I first came to this forum I made the argument that Atheism was a causal component for the attrocities of Mao, Stalin and others. However I was unable to establish any such relationship. Saying that is a part of it doesn't really tell us anything. Can you establish a cause and effect relationship?
Speaking with someone who was brought up under atheist Russia, he told me about how he was taught and held a rather negative view of religion. A view that he would view religous people as lesser. After coming to the US and interacting with mostly religous people, he had greatly loosened this viewpoint.

I think any view can be used as a way of defining unhealthy distinctions between people. So, no, atheism isn't incorruptable in that way. Reason and atheism are not the same thing.
 
I personally don't want to take up arms in a war between the Theists and the Atheists. Honestly when I hear either side at it, I want to get away from the danger of being caught in the crossfire.
Most people I know in these camps have reasons more than argument and evidence for being where they are. A lot of personal identity and self esteem tends to be attached to these spiritual questions.

I don't know how to relate to camps, groups, factions, or the like anyway. I deal with people on an individual basis. I respect the journey of an individual, share my position, and if the other wishes to make me an object of his or her idological agenda, I get peeved and show it.

I'm grateful that I live in a secular state that hasn't an agenda to promote either Theism or Atheism. Both would be a toxic environment in my estimation.
I'm glad I had the freedom to be a Theist and the freedom to move beyond that. I'm an Atheist now merely in the sense that I lack a belief in Theism.
Millitantly putting forth a lack of a belief would change it into the promotion of a belief.

But I know people who must have something of a belief, an objective, absolute position that everyone must conform too. People of that personality on either side will shoot me for being a wuss.
 
Doesn't the many outed homophobic Christian homophobes and Christians' constant inability to behave morally or form an even minimally logically consistant worldview show that they in fact really don't believe what they are saying?

"Celebrating the death of someone you disagree with makes you a dick."

I find it funny, all of the people who seem to fear mortality and don't think it's appropriate to view Falwell's death in a positive light. When an evil man stops doing evil things, joy is the appropriate emotional response.
 
Doesn't the many outed homophobic Christian homophobes and Christians' constant inability to behave morally or form an even minimally logically consistant worldview show that they in fact really don't believe what they are saying?

"Celebrating the death of someone you disagree with makes you a dick."

I find it funny, all of the people who seem to fear mortality and don't think it's appropriate to view Falwell's death in a positive light. When an evil man stops doing evil things, joy is the appropriate emotional response.
I don't think it's wrong to the people who died, but rather those who are in mourning.
 
Speaking with someone who was brought up under atheist Russia, he told me about how he was taught and held a rather negative view of religion. A view that he would view religous people as lesser. After coming to the US and interacting with mostly religous people, he had greatly loosened this viewpoint.

I think any view can be used as a way of defining unhealthy distinctions between people. So, no, atheism isn't incorruptable in that way. Reason and atheism are not the same thing.
Ok, let's assume this but can that be linked to the attrocities?
 
By Proving that biogtry, racism, religious bigotry and homophobia will reduce in the world because of his death.

It did, it was reduced by one practitioner of bigotry, racism, religious intolerance and homophobia.
 
I could care less about the feelings of those who mourn over the death of a complete a-hole.
And that is a rather d$ckish view. You may be justified, but being just and being decent aren't the same thing.
 

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