The Death Penalty and Forgiveness

Skeptic

Banned
Joined
Jul 25, 2001
Messages
18,312
Here is one thing I don't understand. Many abolitionists claim, in the name of "humanity", that the death penalty should be abolished because we should learn to forgive crimes and not punish with "an eye for an eye", which is merely "revenge".

I don't get either aqrgument. They both seem to me to be obviously wrong.

First, who is the "we" which should forgive? Morally, a man is entitled to forgives wrongs that were done to HIM. If you steal $20 from me, I have the right to say, "never mind, I forgive you, let's not say a word about it any more". But who gives OTHER people the right to forgive in the wronged person name? What would you say if I released the person who stole $20 from you, because I forgave him in your name?

If the relatives of the victim wish to forgive the murderer, that's one thing. But the DP opponents claim that it is THEY (in the name of "humanity") that have the right to forgive, and not the relatives of the victim. If anything, the relatives of the victim are usually ignored, if not belittled, by these great "humanists of forgiveness". Who gave the DP opponents this right?

Second, the "eye for an eye" issue is NOT revenge. In context, it means two things: 1). ONLY an eye for an eye, e.g., punishment proportional to the crime--like punishing murder by death; 2). Only the eye of the CRIMINAL for an eye, e.g., not the eye of his son or other family members, as was then the current practice.

This is not "revenge". Revenge would be killing someone for pickpocketing so you could enjoy his suffering for doing you a minor wrong; revenge would be going out and killing a few of the criminal's relatives for the murder he committed so that he'll feel exactly what it's like to lose a relative. This is hardly the case here. If anything, the death penalty is a case of appropriate punishment limited to the perpetrator--in other words, of justice.

So why do we keep hearing these arguments?
 
So why do we keep hearing these arguments?

There's always someone who will never accept the DP, and there's someone who won't accept it because it doesn't work like it's suppose to.

I never heard the argument to "forgive" with the DP, so I can't answer that one.

But for the "an eye for an eye" philosophy, it's problematic. For example, if you steal from my garden $20 worth of lettuce, I can do the same. If you kill my brother, I can do the same. The problem with it is: where do we stop? We'll always feel injustice, and it'll overflow into revenge. Like Gandi said: "An eye for an eye will only make the world blind."

Then there's the problem of abuse, the Law has condemmed individuals who were innocent. How do we right that wrong?

I would keep DP for extreme crimes, like when there's more than one death, and that we're SURE he's guilty without a doubt. There are worse punishments than the DP, but they're unconstitutional.

Gem
 
My view is that it's not about forgiveness; instead it's that the governement should not be killing people.
Lock 'em up for life, fine. But no government should kill someone.
 
Skeptic said:
Here is one thing I don't understand. Many abolitionists claim, in the name of "humanity", that the death penalty should be abolished because we should learn to forgive crimes and not punish with "an eye for an eye", which is merely "revenge".

I don't get either aqrgument. They both seem to me to be obviously wrong.

First, who is the "we" which should forgive? Morally, a man is entitled to forgives wrongs that were done to HIM. If you steal $20 from me, I have the right to say, "never mind, I forgive you, let's not say a word about it any more". But who gives OTHER people the right to forgive in the wronged person name? What would you say if I released the person who stole $20 from you, because I forgave him in your name?

If the relatives of the victim wish to forgive the murderer, that's one thing. But the DP opponents claim that it is THEY (in the name of "humanity") that have the right to forgive, and not the relatives of the victim. If anything, the relatives of the victim are usually ignored, if not belittled, by these great "humanists of forgiveness". Who gave the DP opponents this right?

Second, the "eye for an eye" issue is NOT revenge. In context, it means two things: 1). ONLY an eye for an eye, e.g., punishment proportional to the crime--like punishing murder by death; 2). Only the eye of the CRIMINAL for an eye, e.g., not the eye of his son or other family members, as was then the current practice.

This is not "revenge". Revenge would be killing someone for pickpocketing so you could enjoy his suffering for doing you a minor wrong; revenge would be going out and killing a few of the criminal's relatives for the murder he committed so that he'll feel exactly what it's like to lose a relative. This is hardly the case here. If anything, the death penalty is a case of appropriate punishment limited to the perpetrator--in other words, of justice.

So why do we keep hearing these arguments?

1) If you ask "who are we to forgive," do you not also have to ask "who are we to punish?" Criminal law is a question of state v. individual, not victim v. individual. The wrong being redressed in a criminal trial is that against the state, so yes, the state (as victim), even keeping in line with your analysis has the power to forgive.

2) I just simply disagree with your comments w/r/t "revenge" and "justice." I do not see how they are mutually exclusive, as you seem to include a fair bit of "revenge" in your concept of justice. The idea that someone "gets what they deserve" is completely consistant with what I would consider "revenge" to be.

Punishment classically, has six purposes.

A) Prevention: Prevent future crimes by the particular criminal by giving him/her an unpleasant experience he/she will not want to repeat. Also called "intimidation" or "particular deterrence." Similar (or exactly like, actually) negative conditioning.

B) Restraint: Physically keep criminal from preventing crimes.

C) Rehabilitation: Return criminal to society as someone who doesn't want to commit crime; the happy cousin of "A" above.

D) Deterrence: The suffering of the criminal as an example so that others will not commit crimes.

E) Education: Punishment educates public as to what is right and wrong. Usually applies to technical and morality type crimes and not serious crimes.

F) Retribution. Punishment is inflicted to obtain revenge, as "it is only fitting and just that one who has caused harm to others should himself suffer for it."

(source for above - Criminal Law, Second Edition by LaFave and Scott, West Publishing 1986 pp 22-26)

It seems you want to add another category called "justice." In the sense that justice is meant by "getting what is coming to you" I'd think it falls under retribution. As far as "what is right for all involved", I'd think it is the very thing the above six theories are trying to define.

The death penalty, aside from retribution, applies the theory of "restraint" pretty darn efficiently. It is also meant to apply the theory of "deterrence."

3) My final point is that some people do not recognize "retribution" to be a morally legitimate reason for punishment. They argue that life imprisonment satisfies the theories of "restraint" and "deterrence" as well as the death penalty and thus society should choose what they consider the less gruesome method of punishment. This isn't a question of foregiveness, rather a question of the selection and enforcement of values in order for a society to deliver "justice."
 
MoeFaux said:
My view is that it's not about forgiveness; instead it's that the governement should not be killing people.
Lock 'em up for life, fine. But no government should kill someone.

I somewhat agree. State murder is still murder. But we also need to realize that a forgiving society is far stronger than a condemning one.

Keep them in prison. Have them listen to the families of their victims. Let them listen to what lives they have destroyed. Each and every day for the rest of their lives. For what purpose? To let them - and others - realize that they destroyed not just single persons, but whole families.

Not guilt. But responsibility. To you, me, everyone. In a way, it's the ultimate insult to criminals: We treat them far better than they treat us.

The "cost" of keeping them incarcerated is too high? Why should we let murderers live, at the tax payers' expense? Why not? What is the bigger penalty, killing them and create a myth, or keeping them alive, letting them know each and every day that they have committed a crime? I suspect that most of these killers look forward to the prospect of becoming lore: They don't give a damn about being executed. Had they feared to be executed, they would not have committed the crime in the first place. On the contrary: They revel in the thought of becoming legend. So, let's not give them what they so desire.

Who remembers a convict, who has spent 30 years in the slammer, buried in oblivion? Who remembers Ted Bundy?

"Revenge" is not the issue here. "Justice" is. We have to create a society where crime is not tolerated. But if you treat a criminal like an animal, you will get an animal. What is gained from that?

What price on justice? No price is too high. Think of the victims, and their families. They need to know that the criminals are being punished, each and every day. Not just for one day.
 
I would simply add what I just added on another thread a minute ago:

The death penalty is NOT a punishment. It is actually a release from it.

And bearing in mind Suddenly's comments above, it is also a release from any of the reasons for punishment. It becomes a reason not to think about trying anything else.
 
Originally posted by CFLarsen


Let me say first of that I do not believe in capitol punishment. With one proviso. I do not believe that there is anything wrong with "hard labor" as a sentence. I also do not believe that a person spared the death penalty has the right to co-opt the press or communicate with the outside world. Fine and good but I'd bet that the ACLU would take issue with that. If I could be assured that these guys would be locked away, never to be heard from again, I'd be unequivically against the DP.


I somewhat agree. State murder is still murder. But we also need to realize that a forgiving society is far stronger than a condemning one.

Ummmm .... Proof of this Claus?

Keep them in prison. Have them listen to the families of their victims. Let them listen to what lives they have destroyed. Each and every day for the rest of their lives. For what purpose? To let them - and others - realize that they destroyed not just single persons, but whole families.

Yup, we are as one on this

Not guilt. But responsibility. To you, me, everyone. In a way, it's the ultimate insult to criminals: We treat them far better than they treat us.

I'm not sure that a sociopath would really care.

The "cost" of keeping them incarcerated is too high? Why should we let murderers live, at the tax payers' expense? Why not? What is the bigger penalty, killing them and create a myth, or keeping them alive, letting them know each and every day that they have committed a crime? I suspect that most of these killers look forward to the prospect of becoming lore: They don't give a damn about being executed. Had they feared to be executed, they would not have committed the crime in the first place. On the contrary: They revel in the thought of becoming legend. So, let's not give them what they so desire.

Actually that is exactly what made me change my mind. I felt that we were giving McVeigh exactly what he wanted

Who remembers a convict, who has spent 30 years in the slammer, buried in oblivion? Who remembers Ted Bundy?

Well, you, for one

"Revenge" is not the issue here. "Justice" is. We have to create a society where crime is not tolerated. But if you treat a criminal like an animal, you will get an animal. What is gained from that?

We do treat criminals as animals, we lock them up. The only argument that I can buy for the DP is that it demonstrates society's loathing for the criminal, in effect saying "Get thee gone thou shalt not live with us"

What price on justice? No price is too high. Think of the victims, and their families. They need to know that the criminals are being punished, each and every day. Not just for one day.

Yes, see my proviso. [/QUOTE]
 
Ed said:
Let me say first of that I do not believe in capitol punishment.

I do. Being sentenced to serve at Capitol Hill is a punishment in itself...

Should I shut up now? :D

Ed said:
Ummmm .... Proof of this Claus?

It's an opinion. :)

Ed said:
Yup, we are as one on this

Oh, my...being as one with a god? Beatification be gone, I'm headin' straight for sanctity! :)

Ed said:
I'm not sure that a sociopath would really care.

Probably not. There is always the chance, though. What is lost?

Ed said:
Actually that is exactly what made me change my mind. I felt that we were giving McVeigh exactly what he wanted

Yup. He wanted to be a hero, executed by the state he so hated. Big mistake.

Ed said:
Well, you, for one

Har-de-f*cking-har. I saw the TV show and read the books. So? :)

Ed said:
We do treat criminals as animals, we lock them up. The only argument that I can buy for the DP is that it demonstrates society's loathing for the criminal, in effect saying "Get thee gone thou shalt not live with us"

Doesn't work. Life is not precious to them, as they so amply have proved.

Ed said:
Yes, see my proviso.

I'll see you and raise you 5 cents. :)
 
Philosopher

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 5222

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
Let me say first of that I do not believe in capitol punishment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I do. Being sentenced to serve at Capitol Hill is a punishment in itself...
(nb. Your english is generally flawless so you might appreciate an idiom. It is "on" Capitol hill)

Should I shut up now?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
Ummmm .... Proof of this Claus?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's an opinion.

Fair
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
Yup, we are as one on this
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Oh, my...being as one with a god? Beatification be gone, I'm headin' straight for sanctity!

Yup. Got done with Theresa early. She says she could use a Danish stud for company
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
I'm not sure that a sociopath would really care.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Probably not. There is always the chance, though. What is lost?

Agree


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
Actually that is exactly what made me change my mind. I felt that we were giving McVeigh exactly what he wanted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yup. He wanted to be a hero, executed by the state he so hated. Big mistake.

Yes. We have not heard the last of him


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
Well, you, for one
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Har-de-f*cking-har. I saw the TV show and read the books. So?

Gone but not forgotten is all


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
We do treat criminals as animals, we lock them up. The only argument that I can buy for the DP is that it demonstrates society's loathing for the criminal, in effect saying "Get thee gone thou shalt not live with us"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Doesn't work. Life is not precious to them, as they so amply have proved.

I didn't say it was perfect. It is more symbolic for the living. Like the old fashioened excommunications, candles snuffed out and all that


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
Yes, see my proviso.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'll see you and raise you 5 cents.

Call.


__________________
SkepticReport.com
 
MoeFaux said:
My view is that it's not about forgiveness; instead it's that the governement should not be killing people.
Lock 'em up for life, fine. But no government should kill someone.

Kum-freaking-by-yah...

Our government has killed millions of human beings. Germans, Japanese, Italians, etc. Good thing, too.

Hey, I am pretty ambivalent about the death penalty, but let's keep our heads out of the clouds.
 
Draw up two lists, one contains all the countries that execute people, the other list contains the countries that don't...ask yourself which list looks like a list of tinpot dictatorships, totalitarian basketcases, Patriarchal theocracies and banana republics. Also ask yourself which list your country would look better on.
 
The Fool said:
Draw up two lists, one contains all the countries that execute people, the other list contains the countries that don't...ask yourself which list looks like a list of tinpot dictatorships, totalitarian basketcases, Patriarchal theocracies and banana republics. Also ask yourself which list your country would look better on.

Japan, but they have strict gun laws.:D

Seriously, WTF should I care about other countries? I mean, are our policys dependent on the French, for example?
 
CFLarsen said:
I somewhat agree. State murder is still murder. But we also need to realize that a forgiving society is far stronger than a condemning one.

I agree with Claus (alert Ted Koppel!!! :eek: ), but I also want to point out that if you're a victim, or in this case the victim's loved one, forgiving the criminal is not done for the criminal's sake, but for yours. Carrying the pain and the hate around with you the rest of your life is not healthy. At some point you have to let go.

People always scream out for the death penalty so that the families of the victim can have "closure," or "finally be able to put it behind them," or something like that, but all too often those loved ones find that the death of the perputrator has solved nothing. They have to look for peace and closure within themselves.
 
Originally posted by Skeptic
First, who is the "we" which should forgive? Morally, a man is entitled to forgives wrongs that were done to HIM. If you steal $20 from me, I have the right to say, "never mind, I forgive you, let's not say a word about it any more". But who gives OTHER people the right to forgive in the wronged person name? What would you say if I released the person who stole $20 from you, because I forgave him in your name
What would you say if someone who secrectly hated you wrongly accused you of stealing $20, managed to deceive a court into believing this was so and then was allowed to pass his own personal version of morality over you by deciding your sentence?


If the relatives of the victim wish to forgive the murderer, that's one thing. But the DP opponents claim that it is THEY (in the name of "humanity") that have the right to forgive, and not the relatives of the victim. If anything, the relatives of the victim are usually ignored, if not belittled, by these great "humanists of forgiveness". Who gave the DP opponents this right?
What are you suggesting here? That the victim should decide a criminals fate? Relatives do have the option to forgive or not to forgive, that's a personal decision you hold in your heart isn't it? They just can't and shouldn't be involved in sentencing.

The whole idea is that the court is objective and detached and thus in a better position to make a rational decision. It would be a pretty messy and imbalanced system if we allowed victims to decide the penalties for criminal acts wouldn't it? For one thing it would place a huge burden on an individual, outcomes would be much more inconsistent and depend upon the emotional state of someone who is probably already too involved and distraught to think rationally.
 
CFLarsen said:


I somewhat agree. State murder is still murder.

From Dictionary.com:
mur·der (mûrdr) n.
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

So the death penalty is not murder. And the state is not committing murder.

But we also need to realize that a forgiving society is far stronger than a condemning one.

I agree with this up to a point.

Keep them in prison. Have them listen to the families of their victims. Let them listen to what lives they have destroyed. Each and every day for the rest of their lives. For what purpose? To let them - and others - realize that they destroyed not just single persons, but whole families.

Sounds more like a sentence assigned to the families than the killer.

Not guilt. But responsibility. To you, me, everyone. In a way, it's the ultimate insult to criminals: We treat them far better than they treat us.

Sure, that will really hurt their precious feelings. After all, we all know how sensitive murderers are. And we'll fart in their faces and say ugly things about their mothers.


The "cost" of keeping them incarcerated is too high? Why should we let murderers live, at the tax payers' expense? Why not?

I hear most death penalty abolitionists say that it actually costs more to execute someone than to imprison them for life. Regardless, it is a stupid argument. It is even cheaper to just let them go. Boy! Wouldn't that insult a murderer. We tell him, "You are free to go!"



Who remembers Ted Bundy?

Who doesn't?


But if you treat a criminal like an animal, you will get an animal. What is gained from that?

How does executing someone turn them into an animal?

What price on justice? No price is too high. Think of the victims, and their families. They need to know that the criminals are being punished, each and every day. Not just for one day.

Punishment for one day? If it is such a small thing, why does almost every man/woman on death row fight tooth and nail to avoid being executed?
 
People always scream out for the death penalty so that the families of the victim can have "closure," or "finally be able to put it behind them," or something like that, but all too often those loved ones find that the death of the perputrator has solved nothing. They have to look for peace and closure within themselves.

[surprised to be in total agreement with shanek on something]

It makes poor sense to me that the victim of a violent act could ultimately feel comforted by another violent act. I'd be better comforted knowing that while their is violence and horror in the world, there is also compassion and humanity. But even if it did make some people "feel better" that's not a good enough reason for the state to impose the DP.
 
Republicans, self-proclaimed defenders of individual rights, (largely) believe the state has the power to execute its own citizens. I love it.

May I suggest the case against the death penalty rests on one point, and one point alone: the belief that the state does not have the right to kill people who do not pose an immediate danger to others.

All other arguments are, by comparison, uncompelling. We often hear a person say, "Oh, I believe in death penalty *in theory*." Ah, so you see nothing wrong -- *in theory* -- with premeditated, government approved killings. How nice.

Or what about the humanists who invoke a coldly calculating cost-benefit analysis to oppose the death "penalty"? Are they suggesting that if court room costs decreased and imprisonment costs increased, we should reconsider killing people?

The burden of proof rests with persons or institutions that want to interfere in the lives of others in an authoritarian manner. In the case of the death penalty (premediated killing) that burden is, I think, unimaginably high. The notion that we need to execute individuals who no longer pose a threat to society for "closure" or "retribution" or "punishment" is, in my opinion, sickly sadistic and morally appalling. Worse, this unfounded nonsense masquerades itself as "Justice" in the public consciousness.
 
Ed said:
Seriously, WTF should I care about other countries? I mean, are our policys dependent on the French, for example?
No worries Ed, I thought you may like a list of all your brother nations....and a fine list of Nations they are.....

Firstly "The big 4", responsible for 90% of executions worldwide.

China, Saudi Arabia, the USA (in 3d place) and Iran.

You're in fine company there... although I'm surprised you settle for the bronze.....

The rest of the crew are amateurs in comparison and they are.


Afghanistan, Algeria, Armenia, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belize, Botswana, Burundi, Cameroon, Congo (Democratic Republic), Congo (Republic), Cuba, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guatemala, Guyana, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgystan, Lebanon, Libya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Mongolia, Morocco, Myanmar, Oman, Pakistan, Palestinian Authority, Philippines, Rwanda, Samoa, Singapore, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Swaziland, Taiwan, Tajikstan, Thailand, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Viet Nam, Yemen, Yugoslavia, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

Now, on the whole, thats a fine looking list of free progressive nations isn't it......The cream of the crop. I bet there are a lot of nations who would kill to get on that list....:D
 
shanek said:
I agree with Claus (alert Ted Koppel!!! :eek: ),

engel1.gif
engel2.gif


OK, OK....don't let it happen again...! ;)

Luke T. said:
So the death penalty is not murder. And the state is not committing murder.

Does that mean that the Nürnberg Laws were OK?

Luke T. said:
Sounds more like a sentence assigned to the families than the killer.

Closure. They get to look the killer in the eyes. They have a chance to understand what happened.

Luke T. said:
Sure, that will really hurt their precious feelings. After all, we all know how sensitive murderers are. And we'll fart in their faces and say ugly things about their mothers.

Well, "your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries" is a pretty strong insult! ;)

It's not about hurting their feelings. It's about showing them that whatever they do to us, they won't make us as bad as them.

Turn the other cheek, Luke.

Luke T. said:
I hear most death penalty abolitionists say that it actually costs more to execute someone than to imprison them for life. Regardless, it is a stupid argument. It is even cheaper to just let them go. Boy! Wouldn't that insult a murderer. We tell him, "You are free to go!"

First, I would like to see those calculations. Second, setting someone free is a very stupid argument.

Luke T. said:
Who doesn't?

My point exactly.

Luke T. said:
How does executing someone turn them into an animal?

Sorry, should have been more clear: The harsher the sentences, the more brutal a penal system you have, the more brutal people you get out of it.

Luke T. said:
Punishment for one day? If it is such a small thing, why does almost every man/woman on death row fight tooth and nail to avoid being executed?

If it is such a big thing, why isn't crime way lower in the US than in, say, Denmark? Can you prove that capital punishment has any effect on crime levels? Do you think that a criminal, just before pulling the trigger, thinks "Oh, wait...I'll be executed for this. Hm. Better not."?
 
The Fool said:
...Turkey...

A country that will have to abolish capital punishment, if they really want to be a part of EU.

No country within the EU can have capital punishment.
 

Back
Top Bottom