The Angela Patel Failure

[The Mighty Thor]

I'm sure we all agree that it was brave of Angela Patel to take the challenge, and good that she did not back out.

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56831

However, I am saddened to hear that she still believes in her 'powers', and that she thinks she was somehow 'psychicly blocked' by some powerful 'sceptic wizard' somewhere. In addition, she obviously is bent on continuing to deceive 'her clients'. I don't know if she is paid for her 'services' or not, so I won't use the term 'defraud'.

She has also stated that she 'can see the future'. I find it amazing that someone who can see the future could not avoid a 'double booking' (as happened re the test) and could not 'see' that she was going to fail the test.

And, if I read Nick Pullar correctly, it looks like her belief in her suppossed talent of finding folk in A-Zs was based on very flimsy evidence in the first place. Did she not at least 'try this out' a good few times before believing in her magical powers?

Finally, I wonder at Angela's use of prayer and a 'Holy Bible'. I guess her Bible has some pages missing, for example the one where it says In Deuteronomy:

18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him./

No mention of 'psychic blockers' here.

 

[Beady]

In addition, she obviously is bent on continuing to deceive 'her clients'. I don't know if she is paid for her 'services' or not, so I won't use the term 'defraud'.

Paid or not, "fraud" and "deceive" are both inappropriate, here, since she gives every appearance of believing in her own powers.

She has also stated that she 'can see the future'. I find it amazing that someone who can see the future could not avoid a 'double booking' (as happened re the test) and could not 'see' that she was going to fail the test.

Whatever. I've already suggested that she now be allowed to apply to have her future-telling tested, if she so desires, without regard to the one-year policy. I believe this would be justified, since the application would concern an entirely different claim.

Seems to me that, if one of our purposes here is to convince the applicant that she has no actual powers, the best course is to demonstrate it as often as she is willing to submit to testing.

And, if I read Nick Pullar correctly, it looks like her belief in her suppossed talent of finding folk in A-Zs was based on very flimsy evidence in the first place.

Isn't that the way it usually works? Didn't Nancy Lieder found her "Zeta" movement on the strength of finding an unwrapped Reese's Piece (a type of candy) in her pocket? How many psychics have claimed to have discovered their powers through careful and repeated experimentation and observation?

Finally, I wonder at Angela's use of prayer and a 'Holy Bible'. I guess her Bible has some pages missing, for example the one where it says In Deuteronomy (snip Deut 18:20-22)

Again, I find neither to be remarkable. First, the Bible has been used for divination ever since it became a printed book. See, for example, one of the Cadfael novels ("The Holy Thief"?), where the monks of Shrewsbury blindly consult random verses to decide where their resident saint's bones will rest.

Second, rationalized interpretations of scripture are done all the time. Every priest, rabbi and imam will go to great lengths to explain how the seemingly-explicit "Thou shalt not kill" is actually to be translated as, "Thou shalt not kill, except..." Then, there is the idea that a rich man will find it exceedingly difficult to get into heaven because of his materialism, yet there are excellent reasons why the Papacy is the most opulent government on earth.

 

[Timothy]

She has also stated that she 'can see the future'. I find it amazing that someone who can see the future could not avoid a 'double booking' (as happened re the test) and could not 'see' that she was going to fail the test.

C'mon, there are enough legitimate reasons to criticize her without setting up strawmen like that.

I see Ms. Patel's failure to concede that perhaps psychic powers don't exist (or at a minimum, that she doesn't have them) as a very telling object lesson in how psychic believers think, and how hard it is to dissuade them from their notions.

It might be educational to ask her (if she ever show up on the forum) what sort of test would convince her that her powers were illusory.

- Timothy

 

[Vikram]

I would like to think that this test has set the ball rolling for Angela, pushing her ever so slightly towards skepticism. The powers mean so much to her right now that she might be unwilling to question them. But in time, perhaps...

Or maybe I'm just having another pipe-dream.

 

[Beady]

Re: Re: The Angela Patel Failure

I see Ms. Patel's failure to concede that perhaps psychic powers don't exist (or at a minimum, that she doesn't have them) as a very telling object lesson in how psychic believers think, and how hard it is to dissuade them from their notions.

Again, Angela's case is nothing special: As Randi, himself, wrote, who knows when, on this very site:

Each dowser goes away from any trial of their powers, dismayed by their failure, puzzled at the reasons for the failure, but always capable of coming up with a reasonable to them excuse. That excuse may be any one of many. It may be an unfortunate arrangement of the planets, improper temperature or humidity, a problem of indigestion, too much ambient noise or too much silence or a poor attitude on the part of the observers. These are not invented excuses; they are all drawn from my personal experience in testing these folks.

By the way, remembering that Angela is a dowser, it is worthy of note that the very next paragraph begins:

I must say that of all those who have ever tried to win the Pigasus Prize, and of those who I have otherwise tested in every part of the world, no claimants even approach the dowsers for honesty.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Re: Re: The Angela Patel Failure

Paid or not, "fraud" and "deceive" are both inappropriate, here, since she gives every appearance of believing in her own powers.



Whatever. I've already suggested that she now be allowed to apply to have her future-telling tested, if she so desires, without regard to the one-year policy. I believe this would be justified, since the application would concern an entirely different claim.

Seems to me that, if one of our purposes here is to convince the applicant that she has no actual powers, the best course is to demonstrate it as often as she is willing to submit to testing.



Isn't that the way it usually works? Didn't Nancy Lieder found her "Zeta" movement on the strength of finding an unwrapped Reese's Piece (a type of candy) in her pocket? How many psychics have claimed to have discovered their powers through careful and repeated experimentation and observation?



Again, I find neither to be remarkable. First, the Bible has been used for divination ever since it became a printed book. See, for example, one of the Cadfael novels ("The Holy Thief"?), where the monks of Shrewsbury blindly consult random verses to decide where their resident saint's bones will rest.

Second, rationalized interpretations of scripture are done all the time. Every priest, rabbi and imam will go to great lengths to explain how the seemingly-explicit "Thou shalt not kill" is actually to be translated as, "Thou shalt not kill, except..." Then, there is the idea that a rich man will find it exceedingly difficult to get into heaven because of his materialism, yet there are excellent reasons why the Papacy is the most opulent government on earth.

Maybe I am being too hard on Ms. Patel. When I said 'deceive' I meant in the sense of 'cause someone to believe an untruth'. I agree that she most likely does not think she is doing this. And I understand the cognitive dissonance that religious folk can tolerate with regard to scripture and magic. In addition, the A-Z thing seems like a pretty innocent 'delusion'. But it would not be so innocent if she were to say she can find missing children, or locate murderers or the like.

The trouble is that people like Angela have so many 'outs', I don't think one test would ever convince.

It makes me wonder why hundreds of psychics, including Sylvia, don't just take the Challenge, then say they were psychicly blocked. Their believers will believe this anyway. Indeed, they may even say that hundreds of psychics failing proves how powerful that old sceptic counter-magic is.

But the seeing the future wasn't a straw man. She may not have claimed this for the test, but she has claimed it now. So, it is legitimate to ask, why didn't she see herself failing the A-Z?

My concern is that Ms. Patel can now say to her clients that she took the Challenge and ONLY failed because she was psychicly blocked by the powerful JREF. That Randi (in her mind) went to all the trouble to suppossedly 'counter' her magic ability will probably only serve to make her feel 'more special' than she did before. Ironic -- but possible.

Sceptics can't win.

 

[jmercer]

Re: Re: Re: The Angela Patel Failure

Sceptics can't win.

Depends on your goal. Will you convince people who are delusional and believe they have magic powers? No.

Can you convince people who are neutral and/or borderline believers or skeptics? Hopefully - and I think it's that audience we should worry about winning over.