The Abu Salim Hospital Massacre

[Caustic Logic]

And other violations of medical neutrality in Libya, Aug. 2011

So I just published another report for Citizen's Investigation into War Crimes in Libya (not a famous group, just my own, collaborative research but my own writing) It's about an event that happened a year ago as the rebels conquered Tripoli. I think it's interesting that around 160 people were either executed in their hospital beds or dumped on the hospital grounds, and no one ever investigated it as a crime scene.

A Violation of Medical Neutrality: The Neglected Massacre at Abu Salim Trauma Hospital
press release/overview thing
PDF download/view page

Coincidence? The victims were Gaddafi loyalists injured in battle, most of those seen black-skinned ("mercenaries"), left to rot for five days before the media was brought in to see. No human rights NGOs called for accountability here. Their heads were shot through (2 verified) or chopped off (one verified) or whatever for the rest (mostly covered-up - I suspect some throat-slitting was involved too). Officially, that was done not by Misratan thugs, or even loyalist ones, but by neglect, after the staff ran away because of loyalist "snipers" somewhere. Except the one doctor who stayed, so there would be someone to say 'no massacre here, I just couldn't keep up...' There were also, BTW, at least two women and three children found there dead.

The lack of massacre comes not from the physical evidence, which supports that explanation. It's what the alleged witnesses said - the tiny 'remaining staff' (see section 5) and the alleged surviving patients (section 6). Check the sniper-shot kid and his back-story. And the guy who says he was mugged by Gaddafi loyalists, probably for his car he just bought. He was an out-of-towner, who came into Tripoli, in late August, to buy a car. At the peak of the war, during the invasion, during a fuel embargo, with massive inflation... yeah...

Any thoughts on the case we've made here? Was there a massacre, or not? Reasons why the question matters or doesn't matter? Ideally, should there be an investigation or charges brought/sought? Etc.?

 

[Caustic Logic]

And just to expand it a bit off the bat, there's a lot about related crimes against the medical profession in those grim days in section three. Interesting factoid, little-known or thought-about, from an excerpt (referring to a graphic of the hour hospitals in question mapped out):

The subject of this report is the hospital at lower left, a hospital dedicated to treating violent trauma that, in peacetime, is only so common. In wartime, it would be sorely needed, but was taken out of service early in that eventful five-day span. As we’ll see, Green (Al-Khadra) public hospital was also hit by violence, and also became inoperative (see 3d), the two facts presumably connected. Tripoli Medical Center, lower right, had a
hand in taking care of Abu Salim’s remaining 21 alleged patients on Aug. 25 and 26 (see section 6). Their cardiac surgeon turned human rights crusader, Dr. Salem Al-Farjani, has previously attracted the CIWCL’s attention for working with false witnesses and for seeming to be one. (see p. 9) There’s little news from there prior to the 25th, but an International Medical Corps dispatch that day said “Tripoli Medical Center and Al-Khadra (the largest and busiest hospitals prior to the revolution) have been completely shut down for the past few days,” but should re-open “tomorrow.” [IMC3]

Just what shut them down is not made clear. The two busiest ones before the war, and the one most needed to save blasted bodies during it, were all closed for the assault at the worst peak of the violence, August 22-25. Only one of these four facilities was operational. Tripoli Central Hospital, to the north on Az Zawiya street, is often reported as “the only hospital” running, and it seems to be the case. It’s the only one reported from by the media, starting on the 24th, sometimes called the Al Zawiya, or Sharia Zawiya, hospital. This sole outlet of a 25% power system was swamped with wounded rebel fighters, civilians, and at least a few Gaddafi loyalists, also struggling with a strangely abbreviated medical staff. Channel 4 news (UK) reported on the 24th from Al Zawiya Hospital: “everything is overwhelmed by incoming casualties – not least the mortuary. … officials here have confirmed most were killed by snipers in the past two days. One said at least 400 people had been killed,” by the violence alone, or by that plus lack of medical care. [C4]

Any takers on the role of (loyalist) snipers being being presented accurately here?Would most of the deaths be from them, or from the invading well-armed rebel forces?

 

[funk de fino]

Your black skinned stuff was silly first time. just stop it.

1. It is Africa
2. In that heat with bodies dead for 5 days what colour do you think they would be anyway?

And here is your money shot:-

(mostly covered-up - I suspect some throat-slitting was involved too).

It really does not matter what you suspect. This is why you spoil your stuff, you just cannot help yourself. It is like a kid in a sweet shop.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Your black skinned stuff was silly first time. just stop it.

Thanks for a comment.

Not only have you still not let go of an ancient episode, you insist on mangling it. There's never been anything wrong with the racist massacre leavings across Libya. Your major victory on race calling was this.

Okay, I cannot find it in the few threads I checked in a Google search. I'd like to - do you remember where? IIRC I though a light-skinned guy might be a foreigner from maybe Chechnya, and you explained how there are plenty of light-skinned Libyans and I demurred and dropped that point. Then you created a backwards version you've tried to use against me when calling out the well-known racist brutality of the Misrata brigades. It makes you seem confused, unless it's actually me. That's why I wanted to find the post and be sure.

1. It is Africa

Was. The rebels had this saying I don't remember exactly - something like "we are Arabs, not Africans." They drove out as many of "Gaddafi's Africans" as possible, either from the country or from their bodies. Like if Arizona rebels over here started taking out "Obama's Mexican mercenaries."

2. In that heat with bodies dead for 5 days what colour do you think they would be anyway?

You think we're that sloppy? Have you looked at the imagery yourself, or just casting blind doubt? There is some ambiguity with some bodies, and one at least I thought was black until I saw the face and called it Arab/Caucasian. Some can't be told for sure but man others, you see the face or hair and it's a Black guy. And it's not just us. As the report explains, page 28 (with more supports scattered around)

Hadeel Al-Shalchi wrote for the Associated Press on at least 41 bodies she verified, “all of them darker skinned than most Libyans, covered
with blankets.” [SAP] Anthony Shadid and Kareem Fahim of the NYT reported “most of the fighters were darker skinned than most Libyans, a sign, rebels there said, that they may have been recruited from sub-Saharan Africa.” [SF] It’s not just skin color, but African hair type and facial features visible on several bodies.

Najib Barakat, head of health within the NTC announced “we don't know who are these bodies … we'll take a tissue sampling and then we will wait and we will analyse them. If they are missing persons, Libyans, I'm sure we can identify them through the families, if they are mercenaries unfortunately we will not be able to identify them.” [AP2] This suggests he too was under the impression they were by-and-large of Black African descent, and that he expected few if any matches. Dr. Sami at Abu Salim hospital itself told the
Guardian “most of the bodies we had here were black Africans.” [GCS]

And here is your money shot:-

It really does not matter what you suspect. This is why you spoil your stuff, you just cannot help yourself. It is like a kid in a sweet shop.

There's blood all over the floor of the "plaster room" where 23 men on beds had been crammed-the floor is coated with blood, lost of sudden bleeding there after being previously bandaged up. They were executed someway in there, and one has his head off. Is it such a leap to expect more blade-to-neck activity?

Do you have any theory what happened here? Inclined to gloss over the physical evidence and believe the alleged witnesses instead, and say there was no killing in here at all?

Anyone else?

 

[Caustic Logic]

I realize above "African descent" should be African nationality or something. I rushed this report a bit to meet the anniversary deadline. As if it matters. Hardly anyone's looking. (section 1 on NGO Physicians for Human Rights is a hoot for those who adore the NGOs)

I quoted "Dr. Sami" above. For fullness, his somewhat chilling account. p. 29:

The Guardian was given a tour of the killing grounds by “Dr. Sami, a trauma surgeon.” Referring to African mercenaries coming into Libya to fight “for Gaddafi,” Sami showed them a prize kept by “the cleaners:” this was “a wallet-sized card issued to a man from Chad.” One side ironically guaranteed safety to the carrier, the other announced he was “here to protect the king of kings.” [GCS] This is a reference to Muammar Gaddafi’s honorific title “king of kings of Africa,” first bestowed by African leaders in 2008 for his efforts toward African unity. Sami said these cards were “given to the mercenaries. There were dozens like this.” His description of how their holders came to be in the hospital and then came to be bodies is strange:

“We had many, many of them in this hospital in the past few days. Most couldn't speak Arabic, or English. They would just point at their injuries. They didn't want to be admitted even if they were in agonising pain. Most of the bodies we had here were black Africans. And most of them were not claimed by anyone.” [GCS]

They sound almost half-mythical, don't they? If they didn't want to be admitted, were they brought in against their will? And then they wound up dying there, gushing blood all over the floor as if violently executed.

 

[funk de fino]

Thanks for a comment.

Not only have you still not let go of an ancient episode, you insist on mangling it. There's never been anything wrong with the racist massacre leavings across Libya. Your major victory on race calling was this.

I thought you'd see the bigger picture. You cannot tell someones nationality by their colour. There are light skinned people in Libya and dark skinned people in Libya. Guess what?

Okay, I cannot find it in the few threads I checked in a Google search. I'd like to - do you remember where? IIRC I though a light-skinned guy might be a foreigner from maybe Chechnya, and you explained how there are plenty of light-skinned Libyans and I demurred and dropped that point. Then you created a backwards version you've tried to use against me when calling out the well-known racist brutality of the Misrata brigades. It makes you seem confused, unless it's actually me. That's why I wanted to find the post and be sure.

You are pretty much saying all dark skinned people are not Libyans. Libya is African.

Was. The rebels had this saying I don't remember exactly - something like "we are Arabs, not Africans." They drove out as many of "Gaddafi's Africans" as possible, either from the country or from their bodies. Like if Arizona rebels over here started taking out "Obama's Mexican mercenaries."

Africa is Africa mate. Nothing you say or do will change that. There are a lot of Libyans proud to be Muslims, probably over being African. But go next doopr to Algeria and they are African and proud if it. What a few rebels say about wanting to be Arabs means nothing

You think we're that sloppy? Have you looked at the imagery yourself, or just casting blind doubt? There is some ambiguity with some bodies, and one at least I thought was black until I saw the face and called it Arab/Caucasian. Some can't be told for sure but man others, you see the face or hair and it's a Black guy. And it's not just us. As the report explains, page 28 (with more supports scattered around)

There's blood all over the floor of the "plaster room" where 23 men on beds had been crammed-the floor is coated with blood, lost of sudden bleeding there after being previously bandaged up. They were executed someway in there, and one has his head off. Is it such a leap to expect more blade-to-neck activity?

Do you have any theory what happened here? Inclined to gloss over the physical evidence and believe the alleged witnesses instead, and say there was no killing in here at all?

Anyone else?

What you suspect is of little consequence, It should be facts you deal in. Stop adding in the assumptions and little suspicions and your work would be miles better.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I thought you'd see the bigger picture. You cannot tell someones nationality by their colour. There are light skinned people in Libya and dark skinned people in Libya. Guess what?

What?

I'm curious what you think I'm getting wrong here. I realize what you're saying, and I don't disagree, so what do you think you're arguing against? I'm confused. You're trying to confuse me, I suspect.

To the extent the following are clues, I'll see about trying a bit to correct the problem.

You are pretty much saying all dark skinned people are not Libyans. Libya is African.

No, I'm saying that's the bogus REBEL claim, more or less. Black=African=mercenary=hate and, sometimes, chop head off. You're aware of this whole issue, esp. with the Misratans, right? That's why ... a hospital full of predominately Black dead guys, whatever nationality, (as well as some identified by ID as Khamis Brigade soldiers, etc.) ... yep, it suggests that disgruntled Misrata-types had been there.

Africa is Africa mate. Nothing you say or do will change that. There are a lot of Libyans proud to be Muslims, probably over being African. But go next doopr to Algeria and they are African and proud if it. What a few rebels say about wanting to be Arabs means nothing

That's encouraging and all, but "glorifying" Gaddafi stuff, like his pro-Africa policies, was illegal outright, for a bit there. A lot of people got killed, jailed, sent fleeing to the bottom of the sea, etc. just for being Black and/or African foreigners. And the whole overblown mercenaries mythology has put a taint, in a lot of peoples' confused minds, about everything south of the Maghreb.

And I'm sure you're aware of what the Misratans did to Tawergha.

What you suspect is of little consequence, It should be facts you deal in. Stop adding in the assumptions and little suspicions and your work would be miles better.

Take it to the media They suspect what all these rebel-provided people say must be true, that heads can and do get chopped off by neglect, etc. Available evidence, logical deductions, a coherent working theory to explain as much as possible (everything here, if we're allowed to question the 'witnesses,' and we are). For what we're trying for, nothing in that is the slightest invalid. BTW, the throat-slitting deduction isn't even in the report. I just said it here, as an aside. And i Do still suspect that and if you've got a big issue with it and more career advice about it, I'm ready to ignore it.

Again, I'll ask one of the several questions you never answer - what the heck, if anything, do you suspect happened here? Or if you insist on facts only, what's a true fact about it, in your mind? Until you have a guess of your own, you could save your breath with these annoying attempts at micro-managing mine while feigning friendly helpfulness and 'tantalizing' bits of feigned admiration.

ETA: I know I could just be more zen about this constructive-criticism-like substance you slather about, but I could also not. And further, thanks for any comments, which is better than the zero everyone else has offered to further the long-delayed discussion on this epic, ignored, war crime.

 

[JihadJane]

One observer here.

 

[Caustic Logic]

One observer here.

Thanks, Jane. Mostly I meant responses from those inclined to disagree, either with the case we've made or that it matters. I always prefer a voice be put to that, as Jargon Buster diligently did, beginning to end, I might add, for the thread surrounding the subject of our first report. (prevailing argument - you might be right but no one cares. Go and be sad, you've wasted your life, haha. And that does make me a little sad, if not quite in the way intended.)

 

[funk de fino]

What?

I'm curious what you think I'm getting wrong here. I realize what you're saying, and I don't disagree, so what do you think you're arguing against? I'm confused. You're trying to confuse me, I suspect.

To the extent the following are clues, I'll see about trying a bit to correct the problem.


No, I'm saying that's the bogus REBEL claim, more or less. Black=African=mercenary=hate and, sometimes, chop head off. You're aware of this whole issue, esp. with the Misratans, right? That's why ... a hospital full of predominately Black dead guys, whatever nationality, (as well as some identified by ID as Khamis Brigade soldiers, etc.) ... yep, it suggests that disgruntled Misrata-types had been there.



That's encouraging and all, but "glorifying" Gaddafi stuff, like his pro-Africa policies, was illegal outright, for a bit there. A lot of people got killed, jailed, sent fleeing to the bottom of the sea, etc. just for being Black and/or African foreigners. And the whole overblown mercenaries mythology has put a taint, in a lot of peoples' confused minds, about everything south of the Maghreb.

And I'm sure you're aware of what the Misratans did to Tawergha.



Take it to the media They suspect what all these rebel-provided people say must be true, that heads can and do get chopped off by neglect, etc. Available evidence, logical deductions, a coherent working theory to explain as much as possible (everything here, if we're allowed to question the 'witnesses,' and we are). For what we're trying for, nothing in that is the slightest invalid. BTW, the throat-slitting deduction isn't even in the report. I just said it here, as an aside. And i Do still suspect that and if you've got a big issue with it and more career advice about it, I'm ready to ignore it.

Again, I'll ask one of the several questions you never answer - what the heck, if anything, do you suspect happened here? Or if you insist on facts only, what's a true fact about it, in your mind? Until you have a guess of your own, you could save your breath with these annoying attempts at micro-managing mine while feigning friendly helpfulness and 'tantalizing' bits of feigned admiration.

ETA: I know I could just be more zen about this constructive-criticism-like substance you slather about, but I could also not. And further, thanks for any comments, which is better than the zero everyone else has offered to further the long-delayed discussion on this epic, ignored, war crime.

Ah, resorts to the two wrongs make a right argument. Bravo.

You know, I've been there many times. I have seen the places you talk about. I'd give you more kudos if you got off your ass and showed you cared by doing something about it and going there. Otherwise it is all huff and puff with a load of assumptions and bias. The nonsense about the majority supporting Gaddafi and all that type of stuff is what drags you down. The Arsene Wenger approach to any video that doesn't support your side. Unsupported stuff that you just have to fill the gaps in with our own "flavour".

If you think any feigned admiration is a game then I cannot do much about it but note, JJ and CE get none of that because their stuff is ..........well.....I'd best not go there. But if you notice I waste little time with it.

 

[Childlike Empress]

If you think any feigned admiration is a game then I cannot do much about it but note, JJ and CE get none of that because their stuff is ..........well.....I'd best not go there. But if you notice I waste little time with it.

Your pretentious little games and postures were ripped to shreds by me literally hundreds of times. The reason why you spend more time trying to get to CL is that he is much more patient and affable, and you maybe don't get his trademark sarcasm.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Ah, resorts to the two wrongs make a right argument. Bravo.

You know, I've been there many times. I have seen the places you talk about. I'd give you more kudos if you got off your ass and showed you cared by doing something about it and going there. Otherwise it is all huff and puff with a load of assumptions and bias. The nonsense about the majority supporting Gaddafi and all that type of stuff is what drags you down. The Arsene Wenger approach to any video that doesn't support your side. Unsupported stuff that you just have to fill the gaps in with our own "flavour".

If you think any feigned admiration is a game then I cannot do much about it but note, JJ and CE get none of that because their stuff is ..........well.....I'd best not go there. But if you notice I waste little time with it.

No indication just what the confusion on race was or if it's been settled, no opinion on what did happen, more advice, now on travel. Now I should have enough money and vacation time (ha!) to travel to Libya first-hand, and get myself locked up as an Israeli spy for daring to report on anything relevant, like these guys (arrested for this), or this lady. Stupendous.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Thanks, CE. It's not even the first time I lost my patience.

Ah, resorts to the two wrongs make a right argument. Bravo.

Resort to two wrongs argument, emphasis on the wrong (or one among many) everyone's tried to ignore so far.

Which loyalist wrong do you think this is supposed to cancel out? All of them in general, stuff you saw in the news, it's all a little hazy? Wait, don't answer, since you don't do that.

Why has this wrong had to remain ignored, to artificially simplify the equation to what the media's presented? This is, basically, 'innumerable and massive alleged wrongs' vs. 'maybe a little slapping of Black captives who maybe weren't all guilty of anything.'

Nowhere in the West's self-congratulatory narrative has the true extent of rebel crimes (or NATO crimes) been accurately factored in, or considered alongside the roster of alleged crimes of the regime. So, we try to add that where there's good evidence to support that 'something missing' that starts out as just a feeling (a very familiar one by now).

 

[funk de fino]

Your pretentious little games and postures were ripped to shreds by me literally hundreds of times. The reason why you spend more time trying to get to CL is that he is much more patient and affable, and you maybe don't get his trademark sarcasm.

Ego tastic CE!! Fly over, fly over.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Ego tastic CE!! Fly over, fly over.

You know, if the arguments she ripped to shreds (even if not "literally hundreds" I'm sure they're plenty) are anything like the ones I've seen you make, it's not such an achievement. But more often, I don't even understand what you're saying, and it's not clear you do either, so I don't even know how to argue against it.

ETA: I refuse to wrestle with jellyfish, even the non-stinging kind, or to continue engaging with you, unless you start answering questions, offering opinions based on the material, or engaging the issue under discussion in any real (specific) way.

 

[funk de fino]

No indication just what the confusion on race was or if it's been settled, no opinion on what did happen, more advice, now on travel. Now I should have enough money and vacation time (ha!) to travel to Libya first-hand, and get myself locked up as an Israeli spy for daring to report on anything relevant, like these guys (arrested for this), or this lady. Stupendous.

Cant be bothered then? It's all just a cozy wee hobby.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to spend pouring over everything. However, if I did, I would see the two polarized sides of the story. The two wrongs is that just because the "western media" only report some stuff the way you dont like, it doesn't mean you can do the same and be credible. I have read more of your stuff than you probably would imagine and you put the effort in big time but your bias totally spoils it all. You have a complete blind spot to it while castigating the "western media" for the same. I know what that that is in my book.

I note in some links there that the NGOS seem to be the goodguys now eh? Strange that.

 

[funk de fino]

You know, if the arguments she ripped to shreds (even if not "literally hundreds" I'm sure they're plenty) are anything like the ones I've seen you make, it's not such an achievement. But more often, I don't even understand what you're saying, and it's not clear you do either, so I don't even know how to argue against it.

CE hasnt ripped anything to shreds. The grandoise grandstanding is a myth. Some things I do know a fair bit about. Venezuela is one. CE doesnt do too well on that. 911 is another. CE does worse than bad on that. I am not sure I even get involved in much other stuff CE does.

The "hundreds of times" should give you a clue as to the truthfulness of that staement.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Oh, blahblahblah.

Another passage, human rights investigators being color-blind and thus missing a pretty obvious rebel violation of medical neutrality. (p. 20)

Human Rights Watch reported on the 27th about 18 bodies found a few blocks southwest of that spot, in patches along a dry riverbed between the Ghargour district (just west of Abu Salim) and Gaddafi’s compound. HRW was told these men had been killed by Gaddafi loyalists at different times over the week prior to “August 25, when the rebels seized control of the area.” The victims are almost exclusively Black, by the available photographs. HRW found that only two had their hands bound as they saw the bodies, and another two “were wearing the green scrubs of Libyan doctors and nurses.”

These two bodies aren’t shown in HRW’s public images, but seem to be among four executed bodies along the same river/canal as those. Seen from four different perspectives in three known videos and one photograph, they’re piled near the intersection of the canal and Airport highway. Two of these wear what could be surgical scrubs of slightly differing shades of blue-green. They’re both black males, laying on a concrete walkway with handrails, presently unbound, but apparently executed in some bloody manner, as shown at left. The third victim, in purple, is all but invisible here behind the two in the foreground, and another apparent black man in light blue lays a ways off on the street's edge, upper left here. [CLD]

The cited source and imagery to compare is compiled here: http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/12/tripoli-massacres-18-by-dry-riverbed.html
continuing ...

Although the crucial clue of race never came up, Human Rights Watch is clearly hearing about the same incident from concerned locals who explained the killings. “A medical laboratory engineer” named Kikli told HRW how two African fighters at his home asked
if he was a civilian, threatened to kill him anyways when he said yes, and then ten
minutes later attacked someone else instead; “I saw them taking a doctor and another guy from an ambulance” nearby, he said, shoot them dead, and siphon the gas. “The
ambulance said “February 17 Misrata” on it,” he added, strongly suggesting a rebel ride,
as opposed to the one parked at the medical tent with another executed Black guy inside
it. [HRW]

Another witness told HRW that later he saw that “two people with dark skin
and in civilian clothes were driving the ambulance,” after putting the gas back in it,
apparently, “when they dumped three bodies next to his house.” HRW inspected the three bodies, the same Black men, at one point numbering four, that we can see above. Kikli accompanied and told them “the third body, dressed in civilian clothes, was that of the driver.” [HRW] HRW apparently accepted that this man they examined drove this rebel ambulance coming in with the famously racist Misrata brigades, until the Black
mercenaries of the “King of Kings of Africa” (see 4c, page 29) shot the crew dead. The
CIWCL finds this unlikely.

And why is that not a fair conclusion? Anyone other than funk de fino, if possible.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Have only skimmed it so far, a lot of information. Liked the doctor who also posed as a witness...

 

[Caustic Logic]

Have only skimmed it so far, a lot of information. Liked the doctor who also posed as a witness...

Yeah, that whole section on PHR was good. I was sure to message them on completion.

Greetings. The report I promised earlier is published now.
A Violation of Medical Neutrality: The Neglected Massacre at Abu Salim Trauma Hospital.
PHR is addressed in section 1.
[links]

Sorry.

- Adam Larson, CIWCL cofounder