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Testing Telekinesis

GrandMasterFox

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GrandMasterFox
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Oct 12, 2009
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A friend and I recently tossed back and forth on a hyptotheical issue.

Let's say you are an organization like the JREF and you test people who claim to have psychic abilities. What protocol would you advise for a test of telekinesis?

Here's the issues:

1)The test has to be fair both ways. Neither the applicant nor the testing organization should be able to cheat the other.
If you test telepathy, the applicant is usually required to bring his own volunteer, so that he won't have an out claiming that the JREF cheated him by getting their volunteer to simply lie.

But how does that work with telekinesis? Either party who doesn't supply the given object can claim the other side tampered with it somehow.

2)How does one evaluate statistical probability on the test?
 
Will all the people in the room claiming to have telekinetic powers please raise my hand.
 
GrandMasterFox, this is why everyone involved has to agree to the protocols ahead of time.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
A friend and I recently tossed back and forth on a hyptotheical issue.

Let's say you are an organization like the JREF and you test people who claim to have psychic abilities. What protocol would you advise for a test of telekinesis?

Here's the issues:

1)The test has to be fair both ways. Neither the applicant nor the testing organization should be able to cheat the other.
If you test telepathy, the applicant is usually required to bring his own volunteer, so that he won't have an out claiming that the JREF cheated him by getting their volunteer to simply lie.

But how does that work with telekinesis? Either party who doesn't supply the given object can claim the other side tampered with it somehow.

2)How does one evaluate statistical probability on the test?
Click to expand...

We order an object from Amazon to be delivered to the testing site.

We open the package and set it up on site.

I move it using my powers.

I go home with $1 million.

I always thought telekinesis would be the easiest claim to test.
 
The actual test is proposed by the claimant. So the basic setup would be up to them. It is reviewed by JREF, and any changes are agreed on by both parties.
That said, a simple test could be as follows: The object to be moved is placed in a sealed glass container (an old-fashioned anniversary clock dome would be nice), the container on a sturdy table, the table on a stable floor. The claimant sits or stands near the table, but not touching it. Cameras run watching the object, the claimant and the rest of the room. The claimant attempts to move the object.
Obvious items to check: The object should be non-ferous, have no internal mechanisms, and is examined and approved by both parties. The claimant can have no devices to influence the object.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
A friend and I recently tossed back and forth on a hyptotheical issue.

Let's say you are an organization like the JREF and you test people who claim to have psychic abilities. What protocol would you advise for a test of telekinesis?

Here's the issues:

1)The test has to be fair both ways. Neither the applicant nor the testing organization should be able to cheat the other.
If you test telepathy, the applicant is usually required to bring his own volunteer, so that he won't have an out claiming that the JREF cheated him by getting their volunteer to simply lie.

But how does that work with telekinesis? Either party who doesn't supply the given object can claim the other side tampered with it somehow.

2)How does one evaluate statistical probability on the test?
Click to expand...

Well, if one has telekinetic powers, then why bother with JREF at all?

Because if I had such powers, then I would just visit various Roulette tables around the world and scoop up and extra few grand here and there, then move on to some other place before they got wise.

It would be easy to do and I could get in a great deal of good travelling to boot.
 
Pope130 said:
The actual test is proposed by the claimant. So the basic setup would be up to them. It is reviewed by JREF, and any changes are agreed on by both parties.
That said, a simple test could be as follows: The object to be moved is placed in a sealed glass container (an old-fashioned anniversary clock dome would be nice), the container on a sturdy table, the table on a stable floor. The claimant sits or stands near the table, but not touching it. Cameras run watching the object, the claimant and the rest of the room. The claimant attempts to move the object.
Obvious items to check: The object should be non-ferous, have no internal mechanisms, and is examined and approved by both parties. The claimant can have no devices to influence the object.
Click to expand...

...except that the "object" in question would almost certainly be what the proponents of telekinesis call a 'PK Wheel'. Which they can already demonstrate the ability to move while inside a sealed glass container.
 
Just to make sure nobody even thinks otherwise, no I do not think telekinesis is a real thing. It's just a random "what if" (hence why it is in this forum and not the actual MDC)

The question I was pondering it is possible to establish an item to be moved without either party capable of claiming was tampered with. I suppose AvalonXQ suggestion of having a 3rd party deliver it is quite reasonable.

Though I would love to hear the following conversion:
Claiment: We waited four hours and you didn't show up!
Amazon Customer Support: Oh, we're sorry. We had a schedueling issue. We hope there was no inconvinient
Claiment: You just cost me $1,000,000!!!!

As for the issue of statistics, isn't the whole point that the MDC goes by greater than chance probability? If I remember correctly, that's 1 in 1000 for the preliminary test. Is it fair to claim a test with no probability?
Or does one have to determine such thing?
Example: Roll a roulette and the claiment has to make sure it sets on a specific spot.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
As for the issue of statistics, isn't the whole point that the MDC goes by greater than chance probability?
Click to expand...

The point of the MDC is to prove that ANY type of paranormal or supernatural powers or beings exist. Probability only matters in cases where random chance plays a part.

With telekinesis, moving ANYTHING, even just once, by using only the mind would be phenomenal. That type of test would be a simple PASS/FAIL.

:cool:
 
GrandMasterFox said:
Just to make sure nobody even thinks otherwise, no I do not think telekinesis is a real thing. It's just a random "what if" (hence why it is in this forum and not the actual MDC)

The question I was pondering it is possible to establish an item to be moved without either party capable of claiming was tampered with. I suppose AvalonXQ suggestion of having a 3rd party deliver it is quite reasonable.

Though I would love to hear the following conversion:
Claiment: We waited four hours and you didn't show up!
Amazon Customer Support: Oh, we're sorry. We had a schedueling issue. We hope there was no inconvinient
Claiment: You just cost me $1,000,000!!!!

As for the issue of statistics, isn't the whole point that the MDC goes by greater than chance probability? If I remember correctly, that's 1 in 1000 for the preliminary test. Is it fair to claim a test with no probability?
Or does one have to determine such thing?
Example: Roll a roulette and the claiment has to make sure it sets on a specific spot.
Click to expand...
The odds are only important when the test involves something that could happen randomly.
That's why it's up to the claimant to make their claim. If they say they can move something then the test should be that they move something.

Agreeing to the protocol should be easy. The object itself should be pretty easy to agree upon since there's no such thing as telekinesis it just has to be something that's not moved by light and the heavier the better.

If the object is something that can't be move by a regular house fan, then you don't have to put a glass dome or other barrier between the claimant and the object. Of course, they would not be allowed to touch it.

If it can be moved by a house fan, then something should be between the claimant and the object and a house fan could be used to test whether the object is susceptible to wind currents.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
A friend and I recently tossed back and forth on a hyptotheical issue.

Let's say you are an organization like the JREF and you test people who claim to have psychic abilities. What protocol would you advise for a test of telekinesis?

[...]

2)How does one evaluate statistical probability on the test?
Click to expand...


Easy. Telekinesis has a prior probability of zero. Therefore, by Bayes Theorem, it has a posterior probability of zero, regardless of the test's apparent results.

Jay
 
I agree with all the comments and insights, but to be very pedantic about it all: the starting place on such speculations must always be an actual stated claim.
 
Laboratory balance in an airtight Faraday cage in a damped 'balance room',
If someone can influence its measurement then I'll be willing to concede telekinesis,
 
Just out of interest, has anyone actually claimed to be able to do it and had a preliminary test so far?
 
Have a trusted 3rd party create a clear, completely airtight acrylic (or glass) hollow cube with a non-magnetical piece of material inside it. Place on table. Move the non-magnetical piece of material without touching table or cube.
 
maggot9779 said:
Just out of interest, has anyone actually claimed to be able to do it and had a preliminary test so far?
Click to expand...

Seems like I remember a video of a news show or something with someone who supposedly was turning the pages of a telephone book with the "power of his mind" ... Randi was there, and suggested he was doing it by blowing and put some controls in after the guy's initial demonstration... not sure if it was a MDC or not though.

(edit) Found it... it was actually on "That's My Line" and is actually quite old. I think it might have been from before the MDC, though I didn't re-watch the entire thing to see if the MDC was mentioned.

 
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Another way to handle selection of the object would be to have it picked from a very large number. For example, supposed the claimant says he can move a paper clip. Then the protocol could be to go to a paper clip manufacturer where there are millions of paper clips and then let a third party pick one.

ETA: I was going to post that video too. Yes, the MDC is mentioned in the first minute or two ... back when it was $10K.
 
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maggot9779 said:
Just out of interest, has anyone actually claimed to be able to do it and had a preliminary test so far?
Click to expand...
I don't think the challenge subforum lists all applicants ever, but a quick scan of the thread titles shows three applicants who have claimed telekinetic ability:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97889

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41604

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30119

None got as far as taking a preliminary test, but all are of some interest with regard to what kind of test protocol JREF would consider appropriate. I like the idea of hanging several items from strings and asking the applicant to move just one of them.
 
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