Tensions Between Vietnam and China

angrysoba

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angrysoba
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There are now protests in Vietnam against the Chinese embassy:

(Reuters) - Hundreds rallied on Sunday in Vietnam's biggest cities to denounce China's setting up of a giant oil rig in the South China Sea, a rare protest likely to prolong a tense standoff between the two communist neighbors.

At least 300 people massed in front of China's embassy in Hanoi and a few hundred more at its consulate in Ho Chi Minh City, witnesses said, chanting "Down with China" in protests that expose the underlying cracks in relations between the two political and economic allies.

China's parking of the rig in contested waters a week ago was one of its most provocative moves in years and followed U.S. President Barack Obama's visit to allies such as Japan and the Philippines, which are among the countries locked in disputes at sea with an increasingly assertive Beijing.

Sunday's demonstrations were small but highly significant.
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This is interesting for me as someone I know has been working to buy up unused metal-hulled fishing boats in Japanese harbours to send them to Vietnam through an NGO, because apparently a lot of Vietnamese fishing boats are rammed by Chinese vessels and are destroyed because they are made of flimsy materials.

I recently spoke to a friend of mine who lives in Vietnam who says this issue has been growing for some time, and has been a big current affair in Vietnam. If it comes to a pushing and shoving match with China, Vietnam might turn to Russia for help.
 
angrysoba said:
If it comes to a pushing and shoving match with China, Vietnam might turn to Russia for help.
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Might be a bad time. Isn't China the only major power not condemning Russia? Can't see Putin being happy to offend China right now...
 
Giz said:
Might be a bad time. Isn't China the only major power not condemning Russia? Can't see Putin being happy to offend China right now...
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Apparently not. I think India and Brazil have not condemned Russia.

Of course, all these things are tricky balancing acts for Russia and China. How do you go round annexing territory while acting outraged at territory being annexed?
 
The article describes China and Vietnam as "political and economic allies".

I wonder if that's actually true? China and Vietnam came to blows as recently as 1979.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_relations

Relations have since "improved" and been "normalized", but the same could be said of Sino-American relations, and few would call us "allies". There seems to be an underlying assumption that two nominally "communist" governments are automatically "allies", but that often has not been true in the past.

And the recent tensions show that too.

If you look at how much of the South China Sea China claims on a map, it seems hard to justify. Including waters that are much closer to Vietnam, the Philippines and others than to Mainland China.
 
Puppycow said:
The article describes China and Vietnam as "political and economic allies".

I wonder if that's actually true? China and Vietnam came to blows as recently as 1979.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_relations

Relations have since "improved" and been "normalized", but the same could be said of Sino-American relations, and few would call us "allies". There seems to be an underlying assumption that two nominally "communist" governments are automatically "allies", but that often has not been true in the past.

And the recent tensions show that too.

If you look at how much of the South China Sea China claims on a map, it seems hard to justify. Including waters that are much closer to Vietnam, the Philippines and others than to Mainland China.
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I don't know about that. Vietnam was definitely on the Soviet side in the Sino-Soviet split, and Vietnam's strongest alliance still seems to be with Russia.

And it would also be fair to say that the US and Vietnam are now allies in the sense that they have conducted joint military exercises in the region, often explicitly aimed at limiting China's influence in the South China Sea and protecting Vietnamese fishing boats.
 
angrysoba said:
I don't know about that. Vietnam was definitely on the Soviet side in the Sino-Soviet split, and Vietnam's strongest alliance still seems to be with Russia.

And it would also be fair to say that the US and Vietnam are now allies in the sense that they have conducted joint military exercises in the region, often explicitly aimed at limiting China's influence in the South China Sea and protecting Vietnamese fishing boats.
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I think Vietnam would be far more likely to turn to the U.S. than to Russia. Russia doesn't care about China having oil in that region...China can sell it to Russia. But the U.S. would definitely have concerns about that. Russia and China have a habit of abstaining from any direct disagreement or conflict with each other; the U.S. does not.
 
Wolfman said:
I think Vietnam would be far more likely to turn to the U.S. than to Russia. Russia doesn't care about China having oil in that region...China can sell it to Russia. But the U.S. would definitely have concerns about that. Russia and China have a habit of abstaining from any direct disagreement or conflict with each other; the U.S. does not.
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Yeah, I think you are right.

ETA: At the same time, however, I think Vietnam is keeping its alliance with Russia strong. And Vietnam appears to be friendly with India too, so they are clearly keen to have friends with international clout.
 
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Hmm, in 1979 there was a bit of a dust up between Viet Nam and China.

How'd that go?
 
Perhaps the Chinese were listening when Obama told the Russians to "wait for my second term. I will be more flexible then".

Roosevelt did not say "Talk softly and carry a big stick that they know you will never use".
 
Anti-Chinese rioting in Vietnam turns deadly

Beijing: Escalating violence in Vietnam fuelled by anti-Chinese sentiment has turned deadly with reports of as many as 20 people being killed during rioting which broke out after attacks targeting Chinese nationals and foreign-owned factories.

A doctor at a hospital in central Vietnam’s Ha Tinh province said five Vietnamese workers and 16 other people described as Chinese were killed in riots on Wednesday night, which stemmed from anger at China’s increasingly assertive stance in a territorial dispute with Vietnam in the resource-rich South China Sea.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/antichi...urns-deadly-20140515-zrdzl.html#ixzz31lc3MJLA
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casebro said:
Perhaps the Chinese were listening when Obama told the Russians to "wait for my second term. I will be more flexible then".

Roosevelt did not say "Talk softly and carry a big stick that they know you will never use".
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Are you suggesting Obama should get the US involved in a dispute between China and Vietnam over some tiny islands in the South China Sea?
 
Wolfman said:
I think Vietnam would be far more likely to turn to the U.S. than to Russia. Russia doesn't care about China having oil in that region...China can sell it to Russia. But the U.S. would definitely have concerns about that. Russia and China have a habit of abstaining from any direct disagreement or conflict with each other; the U.S. does not.
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Moreover, the US would have concerns with similar Chinese claims near other countries that are very firmly US allies, such as Japan, and may want to nip the whole thing in the bud.
 
angrysoba said:
China gave Vietnam a knuckle sandwich and then fled back across the border.
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Because Vietnam had the audacity to invade Cambodia and oust the Chinese allied regime of that great humanitarian, Pol Pot.
angrysoba said:
But Vietnam retains its puppet government (according to some) in Cambodia.
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:confused: Norodom Sihanouk had been reinstalled as king in 1993, and Cambodia is currently governed by a multi-party coalition.
 
Puppycow said:
Are you suggesting Obama should get the US involved in a dispute between China and Vietnam over some tiny islands in the South China Sea?
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I am not suggesting involvement, as least not yet, but it is more than a dispute over some tiny islands. From China's perspective, the resurrected/ongoing dispute is simply one prong of a long-term, multi-pronged approach to securing Chinese dominance of the region and US (military) withdrawal. One of the Three Warfares, if you like. There are implications for resource ownership/exploitation, maritime rights of innocent passage, and ability to open/close sea lanes.
 
ddt said:
Because Vietnam had the audacity to invade Cambodia and oust the Chinese allied regime of that great humanitarian, Pol Pot.

:confused: Norodom Sihanouk had been reinstalled as king in 1993, and Cambodia is currently governed by a multi-party coalition.
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No, I know. But the puppet government was that of Hun Sen. And note that I gave myself some wriggle room with "according to some".
 
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