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Teach this young dog an old trick

Bronze Dog

Copper Alloy Canid
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
4,993
As many of you have probably noticed by now, I've got a Doggerel Index, covering a lot of the useless words and arguments woos use. I've got one in particular on the word, "Quantum" that I'm considering updating, or making a sequel to. Maybe something like "Quantum Mechanics Proves [Woo]!" The reason for this is that I've run into a woo who seems to be involved in a lot of misrepresentation about some of the well-known experiments, such as the double-slit thing and the Schroedinger's Cat jiggy.

I'm temporarily putting aside my knowledge of the experiments so that some of you more knowledgeable sorts can explain them (or link to some of the better explanations floating out there) and tell me what the results and terms actually mean, since I seriously doubt their weirdness is evidence for nebulous concepts like deities, free will, and psi.

I'm trying to write for people more lay than I am, so simplicity would be helpful where possible.

"Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." -Albert Einstein
 
A little. :D I'd like to be able to describe the exact textures and composition of the carp.

There's also an implicit, "We don't understand it, therefore GOD!" tone, so I'd like to know just what we do understand, since a lot of people like to pretend science doesn't understand very simple ideas, yet it "proves" their very complicated and often self-contradictory systems.
 
I've got one in particular on the word, "Quantum" that I'm considering updating, or making a sequel to. Maybe something like "Quantum Mechanics Proves [Woo]!"
I've always felt that 'woos' turning to quantum mechanics nowadays is similar to woos (stupid word, can't think of another that will do though) in previous times attributing their particular branch of pseudoscience to electricity or to magnetism (as in mesmer etc...). As and when quantum mechanics becomes more mainstream they'll have to move on to something else (my vote is dark matter.) [thinks]...wonder if you can copyright dark matter?[/thinks].

Yuri
 
...As and when quantum mechanics becomes more mainstream they'll have to move on to something else (my vote is dark matter.)
Yes!!! I was right:
His [Mesmer's] principal theory is remarkable in light of recent discoveries in the realm of latter 20th century physics. Mesmer believed that a kind of psychic ether pervades all space, and that the astral bodies far and near cause tides in this fluid, or ether.
Although today's scientists certainly would not jump to such conclusions, their recent identification of something they call "dark matter", theorized after repeated calculations on the universal mass and gravitational forces proved fantastically understated when compared to mathematical projections, tend to evoke a healthy air of credibility to the theories of some of the earlier shamans, including those of the remarkable Anton Mesmer.

Yuri :purplebananna:
 
As and when quantum mechanics becomes more mainstream they'll have to move on to something else (my vote is dark matter.) [thinks]...wonder if you can copyright dark matter?[/thinks].

my vote is for supersymmetric particles (Wikipedia link). Then superstrings (Wikipedia).

Can't wait for their explanations of how the world is made up of 'branes' and all matter is made up of 'vibrations' and their remarkable product alters these vibrations. Wait, this is happening already... ;)
 
Beleth said...


While scientific validity certainly requires a rigorous degree of repeatability, it is not the case that it need to provide repeatability at the level we want it toIn the double-slit experiment, particles tend to act more like waves than like little billiard balls.

This does not make them less predictable, or the experiment less repeatable. On the contrary. Using the same source of particles and the same dimensions of the slits, the experiment will yield the same results every single time. This is counterintuitive, yet it is also very objective and repeatable -- in other words, scientific.

Science is the method by which we observe and gain knowledge of events around us. If we can observe it, then science can be used to learn from it. Observations which the scientific method cannot be used on is, as Bronze Dog said, an internal contradiction.
 
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Ah. The one on Uncredible Hallq. Thought she meant on my blog about helping me out with explaining QM.

Watched a clip from What the Bleep Do We Know? on the double-slit experiment that looks pretty good, except for what I see as a woo attempt to hide a subtle but vital piece of information at the end:

The electron's behavior probably isn't being influenced by the fact that it's being observed at the slits by some collection of particles that'll care about the results: It's probably being affected because it's being whacked by something: Observation isn't a passive process. The electron is in some way interacting with the observing instrument, and that interaction forces an additional wave function collapse.

Imagine if you were running an experiment that has to be done in the dark because light interferes with it. Something weird goes on, producing unexpected results. Now imagine someone suggests you stick a person with a flashlight in the lab room to watch as the weirdness happens.

Is that an understandable and appropriate analogy?
 
Imagine if you were running an experiment that has to be done in the dark because light interferes with it. Something weird goes on, producing unexpected results. Now imagine someone suggests you stick a person with a flashlight in the lab room to watch as the weirdness happens.

Is that an understandable and appropriate analogy?
It seems to me that this analogy is begging the question. What you are assuming in the first sentence ("light interferes with" the experiment) is what you are testing for in the last sentence.
 
I'm assuming that an observer involves some sort of interaction with the observed. If there's a method of observation that's completely passive, I'd like to know.

When you're dealing with something as small as an electron, I would think that any interaction would throw off the measurements.
 
As many of you have probably noticed by now, I've got a Doggerel Index, covering a lot of the useless words and arguments woos use. I've got one in particular on the word, "Quantum" that I'm considering updating, or making a sequel to. Maybe something like "Quantum Mechanics Proves [Woo]!" The reason for this is that I've run into a woo who seems to be involved in a lot of misrepresentation about some of the well-known experiments, such as the double-slit thing and the Schroedinger's Cat jiggy.

I'm temporarily putting aside my knowledge of the experiments so that some of you more knowledgeable sorts can explain them (or link to some of the better explanations floating out there) and tell me what the results and terms actually mean, since I seriously doubt their weirdness is evidence for nebulous concepts like deities, free will, and psi.

I'm trying to write for people more lay than I am, so simplicity would be helpful where possible.

"Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." -Albert Einstein

I have to apologize for this. I've been thinking about this for a couple of days, and I hope you can forgive me for pointing out that your blog entry is largely wrong.

The word "quantum" by itself refers to, as I understand it, the smallest possible units of energy.

No. It just means that, in practice, energy or mass comes in lumps, and these lumps are of a certain size. It isn't continuous; it's quantized into lumps of a certain quantity. Hence the term quantum.

There is no evidence that energy itself is quantized.

A photon of light can have any energy. What this energy is is not quantized. You can have an arbitrarily low amount of energy in a photon, but you might need a really big antenna to make one. But a photon only has that amount of energy. QM says nothing about whether energy itself is quantized, however.

Because of this, quantum mechanics deals with very small stuff, down to fundamental particles. On that scale, our familiar Newtonian assumptions stop working, and probability takes a much bigger role.

No, twice. Quantum mechanics deals with the entire universe, arbitrarily big. There is no point at which classical (not Newtonian) assumptions take over. There is a point, fuzzily defined, at which they become good enough. People therefore decide to stop at that point, and say that it's classical, so that the can go home and go to sleep. It's just that at the range of the very small, it isn't possible to make this approximation. You have to, whether you like it or not, use the rules of quantum mechanics. But QM affects and in fact is everything at a macroscopic level as well.

The notion of probability only comes in at the interface between QM and classical thinking. QM, or better, QED is nicely deterministic. So is classical thinking. But when you translate between the two, you have to use probability.

Particles don't have a simple position and velocity assigned to them: They have a wave function, which "collapses" when "observed."

This is only one interpretation. An interpretation is a philosophical (not a scientific) idea of what "really" happens. It's used mostly for emotional reasons, to make a particular person happy, so that he and/or she can go to bed contented. This particular interpretation dates from John Von Neumann, a mathematician who did some stuff for Computer Science, though he stole a lot from Alan Turing. For some reason, it has hit the public interest, but few physicists, unless they're undergrads, think this way. Most common is the Copenhagen interpretation, which amounts to "shut up and calculate." The von Neumann interpretation is sometimes called the Copenhagan interpretation, which is wrong, but it has engaged the public interest anyway.

There seem to be plenty of interpretations of what wave function collapse is, but none of the good science ones involve consciousness in any way, like plenty of woos like to claim.

It's true that none of the good science involves consciousness (in fact, it can be demonstrated from experiment that consciousness is not required). However, the "collapse of the wavefunction" is itself part of interpretation, not of what the science tells us.

he woos probably got it from the use of the term, "observer" in many of those interpretations.

Of course, this is a problem. There are a lot of terms from QM that reflect a state of poor understanding. "Observation" is one of those terms, but then again, so are "wavefunction" and "particle-wave duality."

It's best to get an overall understanding to skip quantum mechanics entirely and go directly to the more modern relativistic quantum field theories, such as quantum electrodynamics (QED) with its concept of summation over histories. Unlike QM, this stuff makes sense, though it says the same thing, only better.
 
I'll do it if you remotely buy me a pizza, as per that other thread.
 
Okay... When and where?

Anchovies are okay by you, right? ;)

All right-thinking people enjoy anchovies. Sometimes I eat them out of the tin with a little bread. Or at least I used to, five years ago before I became poor, and I suppose I can now eat them again.

Anyway, I know just the place. New York Pizza Department at (561) 207-NYPD. They make a good and inexpensive pie, and they're only about a mile away from where I work. Have it delivered to E. Pepke at

Cross Match Corporate Headquarters
3950 RCA Boulevard, Suite 5001
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410

Any weekday around lunchtime, except for this Friday. I'm buying two pizzas for the IT department, and three pizzas are too much to deal with on one day. I wanted to do this on Friday, but the pimps screwed up my paycheck. I figure that if you buy the IT department some pizza, they won't get mad at you.
 
Part of me is wondering if you're trying to make me an accomplice in one of those pizza crank calls.

The other part of me feels weird about being in Texas, ordering a pizza for a guy in Florida from a place called "New York Pizza Department."
 
Part of me is wondering if you're trying to make me an accomplice in one of those pizza crank calls.

The other part of me feels weird about being in Texas, ordering a pizza for a guy in Florida from a place called "New York Pizza Department."

Groove with the global village, dude. The NYPD is a perfectly legitimate business.

What's a "pizza crank call" anyway?

Anyway, if you don't want to, don't. You kids these days, you're so paranoid. When I was your age, I drank tap water, and I liked it!

PM me your fax number, and I'll fax you a menu. They're pretty good. I haven't tried their cannoli yet, but the shells look good.
 

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