Sylvia Browne and Angels on Larry King

Elektrix

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Sylvia is on LKL again, with a reverend and this young boy who writes poetry and is apparently dying (I would really hope this boy isn't being manipulated or put on display by other people in order to make money, as that would be incredibly sick).

The weirdest thing is hearing her and the reverend debating their bizarre beliefs about angels.

Really, hearing them all debate their beliefs in angels, their "evidence', etc. is truly bizarre.

I would ask why Larry King continues to provides a venue for this crap, but I already know the answer.

-Elektrix
 
Man, I don't know why I even watch this, it's driving me up the wall. They are continuing to talk about their evidence of angels, etc. (i.e. Jesus says they are real in the Bible, so obviously we believe in them).

They then ask the young boy and Sylvia if they've ever seen angels, and of course they both say yes (the young boy has a photograph they show on the screen with some lighting that makes it appear like there are two angel wings in front of him).

They've had the young boy read a bunch of his "poetry"... I hate to criticize it since he is dying and all, but it seems incredibly inane (the last poem he just read was about how he can imagine what it would be like if there was no heaven and nothing after you died, and that he would pray so everyone can imagine and believe in heaven).

As I said, I really hope this kid isn't being manipulated by other people, but it just seems sick. He apparently is a best-selling author, and I can't help but think that he is being paraded around and other people are making money off him.

I also hate how Larry King just describes Sylvia as a "renowned psychic".

Also interesting of note, Larry King just said that he is trying to avoid any personal questions.... is there some particular reason he doesn't want to have her doing her typical readings to prove her abilities, etc.?

Yeesh. I'm also baffled why this priest is even willing to be on the same show as her. Isn't a lot of what Sylvia does seemingly blasphemous to Christians? I was pretty sure mystics and soothsayers and mediums and such were looked down upon in the Bible.

All of this is just really bizarre. It's like this big lovefest I guess or some infomercial for angel belief, etc...... and I guess to help sell Sylvia's and this kid's books.

But who needs this though? People who already believe in this stuff shouldn't seemingly need to hear these people on TV explaining why it is......

-Elektrix
 
The young poet is Mattie Stepanek. He has had several books of his poetry on the New York Times best seller list. They have introductions witten by Maya Angelou and Jimmy Carter, both of whom have become his friends, through his writing and his work in promoting ideals of brotherhood and peace.

Whatever the merits of the other guests, imo, this 12 year old is incredibly articulate (has been on LKL 3 or 4 other times), and has a vision of life / people/ good and bad, etc. that, is well worth listening to.

Actually, I think he's quite an amazing person.
 
Sylvia just had a real gem, saying that she believed that only bad people found a need to justify themselves (I wonder what that says about her, who seems like she is constantly trying to justify her abilities and claims?).

---

Man, some of the questions people are calling with are really incredible.

One woman just called in to tell a story about her son had run into the house saying that there was a man up in their tree, with big feet, a white dress, no mouth, a shining silver face and "big ears" (which the woman helpfully explained must have been the kid referring to wings).

So then she asks "Can you tell me, was this an angel, sent to deliver a message? Because 4 days later a family member died."

I mean.... what the heck? What is the point of the call? Obviously she a) already thought it was an angel and b) she must have known that the three people on this show promoting angels would answer that it was.

----

Aside from that, they have this notion of guardian angels who appear to people in various forms to warn them about things (i.e. don't take that train, etc.). I know this is an age old question, but what the hell does this mean to all the people who do get killed in accidents, etc..... that they're guardian angels were busy that day? That they're guardian angels didn't care about them?

-Elektrix
 
Clancie said:
The young poet is Mattie Stepanek. He has had several books of his poetry on the New York Times best seller list. They have introductions witten by Maya Angelou and Jimmy Carter, both of whom have become his friends, through his writing and his work in promoting ideals of brotherhood and peace.

Whatever the merits of the other guests, imo, this 12 year old is incredibly articulate (has been on LKL 3 or 4 other times), and has a vision of life / people/ good and bad, etc. that, is well worth listening to.

Actually, I think he's quite an amazing person.
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I don't have any question that he's articulate..... and some of what he says about life/people/etc. is pretty good (if not necessarily stuff that most people wouldn't already believe). I am more concerned that he is perhaps being used in some way.

Aside from that, I don't see any particular merit in what he has to say about angels, although he is of course free to believe what he wants, and of course even to criticize those people who don't believe in heaven, God, angels, etc.

Either way, I'll certainly give him a lot more benefit of the doubt than Sylvia.

-Elektrix
 
Btw, is Mattie Stepanek a genius or something like that?

I only ask because he just read a poem that he said he wrote when he was four. I'm not going to comment on whether I thought it was a good poem or not, as that's irrelevant, but this particular poem he read seemed to have a lot of religious imagery and terminology and some references I wouldn't expect to hear from a four year old, even a particularly talented one.

I wish I had written it down to illustrate (if there is a transcript of this show I will try and dig it out from there). It included some reference to Martin Luther.

-Elektrix
 
Did I see what I thought I saw? Were those Hooter's Girls standing behind the kid in the 'angel wings' photo? Cool!:cool:
 
Ok, the transcript is posted, so I can now paste in the whole poem. This is why I ask about whether or not he is actually a genius, as I am wondering about a poem like this being written by a four year (even a particularly intelligent one)..... even if it came from some prayers he had already heard, etc.

KING: I want you to do another poem for us, Matt. I know you were going to do three tonight. I want you to do another. We'll get more calls in. But which one are you going to do now?

STEPANEK: This is a poem I wrote when I was four years old. And I wrote it...

(LAUGHTER)

STEPANEK: And it's -- I wrote it -- when I felt -- went to sleep one night and I felt not an angel speaking, when I didn't hear a voice, but I felt the words and message flowing into my heart. It echoed peace and light into my mind and my heart.

"Angel Words."

Last night, I felt my guardian angel. And my angel said, Into my heart glory to God in the highest and on Earth, peace to all children and peace to all countries, and states, and colors of skin. That's what my angel said. And then, Katie and Stevie and Jamie and all of the angels, and kings in heaven, like Jesus and Martin Luther, smile at my angel and let a star shine down on to my house and on to my family. And on to myself. And for this, I thank you, God and of this, is my prayer tonight. Amen.

BROWNE: Beautiful!

KING: You were four years old when you wrote that?

BROWNE: Oh my God.

STEPANEK: Yes.

KING: That's a Mattie Stepanek golden oldie.

BROWNE: Oh, yes. When he was just a little kid. Yes.
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-Elektrix
 
The kid could, technically have been 4 years and 364 days... :)

Re. Martin Luther and angels:

"One, however, might say: Yes, I would also gladly believe if an angel thus from heaven were to preach to me. This is very foreign to the subject. Whoever does not receive the Word for its own sake, will never receive it for the sake of the preacher, even if all the angels preached it to him"
...
"The Word itself, without any regard to persons, must be enough for the heart, it must include and lay hold of man, so that he, as if taken captive, feels how true and right it is, even if the world, all the angels, all the princes of hell said differently, yea, if God himself spake otherwise; as he at times tempts his own elect and appears as if he were different than he had before declared. "
...
"These shepherds possessed such faith; for they agree with and cleave to the Word so fully that they forget the angels who declared it to them. They do not say, Let us go and see the word that the angels made known to us, but the word that the Lord hath made known unto us. The angels were soon forgotten and the Word of God only seized and retained. In like manner St. Luke speaks in the text of Mary, that she kept all these sayings, pondering them in her heart. Without doubt she did not let the humble appearance of the shepherds trouble her, but esteemed all as the Word of God. Not only Mary, but all the others who heard these words from the shepherds, and wondered, as the text says. All clung to the Word."

A sermon by Martin Luther from his Wartburg Church Postil, 1521-1522
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Luther basically says that you don't need angels to have faith. In fact, relying on angels for faith is baaaad. Such as using a photo to prove that angels exist, therefore God is real. Only The Word (captial letters, thank you) will do.
 
Posted by Elektrix

Btw, is Mattie Stepanek a genius or something like that?
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Well, imo, most definitely a prodigy.

As for a genius?

Well, with his moral insights and mature understanding and creative articulation of ideas, experiences and feelings....imo, very possibly so, Elektrix.....
 
A few illustrations of madness:

KING: Sylvia, why did the angels and god let it happened to Mattie?

BROWNE: See, I do not believe that God sends that kind of thing to anyone. I, as we talked about, I think everyone has a chart that they have ordained between God and them, to come down to this earth to learn for God, And then when we advance through this learning hell hole that we're in, because I believe this is hell, is that then we go to, you know, our reward.

KING: So then Mattie is somehow cursed?

BROWNE: Listen to him talk, he sounds like a theologian.

KING: Max?

LUCADO: When you experience Jesus, you experience a battle against what's going on with Mattie. Jesus came, as best he could, to enter into people that were blind, that were criminal, that even were dead. And his force was a force even going against Satan to overcome this...

KING: He's omnipotent, Max, he could have prevented what happened to Mattie and his family and chose not to, right. It was a decision. Why not?

LUCADO: There's a great example in John 9, where there was a man who was born blind and the disciples asked Jesus, why is this man born blind, is it because he sinned or because his parent's sinned? Jesus said, no, this is so the glory of God can be resealed in him. In other words, the strength of God, the goodness of God. And I think what we see when we see Mattie is display of God's strength. God's goal is to glorify himself, through his strength.

BROWNE: What an example Mattie is.
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It's easy for people like those on the panel to sit around in comfort making such pronouncements for the wishful-thinking public, and it fits with so much of the pollyanna glurge that passes for religious faith these days. This is refusal to accept life on life's terms. Mattie has a serious illness. It is a natural thing to have happened, however sad it may be. Yet, these people twist this natural occurance into justification for the beliefs they want to sell to others. All of them ignore the fact that most people who suffer in this world do so without having their suffering made into a public show. The notion that suffering is all about the greater glory of God is an appalling belief, and probably one of the most condescending beliefs in history. Equally appalling is this nonsense:

KING: You feel any bad angels around you?

MANNING: Oh, yeah, sure, yeah. There's always that inclination to want to move away from what I know I should be doing. And what's fascinating about the bad angel is, and you can listen to C.S. Lewis, in his, you know, some of his books, what they do is, as a Catholic, I believe that we're always inclined towards good, but the problem is that you can start seeing good in things that are just seeming good, and pretty soon you can find yourself as -- let's say, you can say Herman Goering would be standing in front of the Nuremberg trial and saying, well, the reason that we did all this was, and he can give you all the lists of good. And that's the power of evil, that it takes good and it subverts it, and moves it away from the real greatness that we're all...

BROWNE: But, Father, don't you think it's very seductive, too? Evil can be very seductive.

(CROSSTALK)

MANNING: ... the appearance of good.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWNE: Look at Jim Jones. Look at Jim Jones. Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: People believed in him.

(CROSSTALK)

MANNING: And you take something good. And you say, well, look at this, he's preaching and he started out with social justice and all these things. And then you start moving away from it.

BROWNE: Yes.

MANNING: One of the questions that came up that's interesting is, how do you know you're really following the good angel or following the bad angel? I think there's some simple things that would be like peace, love, security.

KING: But bad angels don't think they're bad?

MANNING: Well, they can think that. But I mean, this ingredient of the presence of God of peace. See, the problem is that we're always doing good, as I believe this. And so...
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Good angels and bad angels? And they all have influence over our behavior...does anyone else see how insane this is? At the very least, it amounts to a cheap excuse for bad behavior. It's the same thing as Flip Wilson's old "The Devil Made Me Do It" comedy routine.

And this one -- this is particularly mad:

CALLER: Do you know why they come to certain accidents and not to others?

MANNING: That's the mystery, isn't it? Yes, it might be manifestations in other ways. That might be an intense need at that point and yet there might be something else happening at another. For example, in September 11, there were angels all of a sudden that allowed so many people to get out of that place.

BROWNE: Exactly.
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What, the others who didn't get out didn't have angels? Or did they listen to the bad angel instead of the good angel?

I'll tell you who helped them get out -- a lot of New York policemen and firemen who died doing it. But, no, it was the angels...

Finally, this shows that the sanest person on the panel was Mattie Stepanek:

LUCADO: Well, you know, knowing how much God loves every person and knowing how much he does not want to us fear the departure of this life to the next, how he wants to prepare us, present his gospel, and get us home, you know who are we to say God didn't send her a special message to get her home safely.

KING: Are you concerned?

LUCADO: And I really don't

MANNING: Oh, sure. I'm concerned. I don't want it happen right away. I mean, I'm concerned about it.

KING: Sylvia?

BROWNE: No. Not at all.

KING: Matthew you fear it?

BROWNE: I fear life more.

KING: Mattie do you fear death?

STEPANEK: Yes, I'm listening very intently. This is very interesting. I'm glad to be a part of it.

KING: Do you fear dying, Mattie?

STEPANEK: I fear dying, but not death. I know that as wonderful as life is, I know there's something bigger and better in the great beyond, which I call heaven, but I want to live life as full as I can. I don't fear dying, I don't fear death itself. I fear the pain of dying. I fear how I'm going to die. I'm afraid -- I'm not afraid of dying, because I know there's always something to look forward to. I'm afraid, will it hurt dying, will it be unacceptable.
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Sylvia's afraid of life -- Mattie wants to live as fully as he can. He's the only one there who faces death at least somewhat rationally.
 
Pyrrho said:
What, the others who didn't get out didn't have angels? Or did they listen to the bad angel instead of the good angel?
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No, no, no...you got it wrong! ;) Sylvia conveniently does not contradict Manning, even though she has a very different opinion of what went on.

Here's what she said about the people dying on 9-11:
SB: "I've addressed this at some of my lectures, as horrendous as it was, those people charted to come down at this time. They were to sacrifice to make us more cohesive and patriotic. We were getting too complacive and smug. God didn't take them, they charted to come at this time. "
Source: MSN chat session with Sylvia Browne, on October 30th, 2001 (available on request)
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So, if you don't die, you have an angel.

If you do die, it was your time anyway, because you yourself decided the time.

It follows that we need angels to save us from dying prematurely. But wait, it was written in these people's charts (actually, they chose their destinies themselves, according to Sylvia!) that they would die....

Can anyone explain this hogwash??? :D
 
My first time seeing Ms. Browne on LK

Last night as the significant other was making dinner, I was lazily flipping through the channels and noticed Browne et al were on Larry King. I thought it would be a hoot. I've never been so wrong. It was infuriating; I practically screamed at the TV a couple of times.

To echo another poster, I kept wondering why the two professional Christians weren't freaked out that Ms. Browne was more or less a sorceress, and why no one called her out when she told another panelist "your daughters each have six angels."

Come on. No one batted an eye when she said this! Further, how can the topic "Do Angels Exist" be taken even remotely seriously when there are zero non-believers on the panel?

And finally (though I may get some angry responses for this), little Mattie is a poor poet and an execrable logician. Bright for his age, sure, but he's no better than even Browne.*

This is my first post ever on the JREF boards. It's nice to be here.

*and yes, those were Hooters girls in the "angel" picture.
 
Re: My first time seeing Ms. Browne on LK

LFTKBS said:
*and yes, those were Hooters girls in the "angel" picture.
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I didn't see the show, but as I understand it, Mattie has a picture he took (or had a picture taken of him?) that shows angels, as well as Hooter Girls?

If that is the case, forget the angels - what I want to know is, what is such a saintly kid doing around Hooter Girls? :D
 
Re: My first time seeing Ms. Browne on LK

LFTKBS said:
...snip...

To echo another poster, I kept wondering why the two professional Christians weren't freaked out that Ms. Browne was more or less a sorceress, and why no one called her out when she told another panelist "your daughters each have six angels."

Come on. No one batted an eye when she said this! Further, how can the topic "Do Angels Exist" be taken even remotely seriously when there are zero non-believers on the panel?

...snip...
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(Sardonic reply coming up – it’s very hot here and I’m not feeling very charitable.)

I think you’ll find it is called “professional courtesy”, you know “you stay out of my patch and I’ll stay out of yours”. ;)

After all letting rip against a fellow “person who promotes non-substantiated and harmful garbage as truth” could mean you might have to answer some difficult questions yourself…. something to avoid at all costs.


I do find it incredible LK never asked SB a question about the challenge that she accepted on HIS show! I take it LK is just a Oprah or Jenny Jones style show for the USA?


Oh and "Welcome, hope you like it here!"
 
LFTKBS,

I was lazily flipping through the channels and noticed Browne et al were on Larry King. I thought it would be a hoot. I've never been so wrong. It was infuriating; I practically screamed at the TV a couple of times.
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Welcome, friend!
 
While Mattie might seem especially mature for a 12 year old, in my experience parents of children whose condition is known in early childhood to be terminal raise their children quite differently to children who are expected to survive to adulthood - in many ways, it's as if they "fast-forward" their children's lives in order to cram as much life experience as possible into a limited time.

These children often interact with the adult world on different terms than other children, and their apparent maturity often reflects this.
 
Re: Re: My first time seeing Ms. Browne on LK

CFLarsen said:


I didn't see the show, but as I understand it, Mattie has a picture he took (or had a picture taken of him?) that shows angels, as well as Hooter Girls?

If that is the case, forget the angels - what I want to know is, what is such a saintly kid doing around Hooter Girls? :D
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Mattie offered a photograph as proof that angels exist.

It was a photo of him in his wheelchair. Standing behind him were four Hooter's girls in their trademark tight orange t-shirts and white shorts. They had their arms around some buff dude with a mustache showing off his pecs.

In the foreground, framing Mattie's face, was an obvious lens flare that was shaped somewhat like generic angel wings.

This evidence completely convinced me that supernatural boobs do exist.
 
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