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Sweden: legislating morality, real life effects?

Eddie Dane

Philosopher
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
6,681
Sweden seems to take a moralistic stance on a number of subjects.

Sale of alcohol is limited, visiting a prostitute is illegal, I hear punishment for recreational drug use is quite severe.

I lean in the liberal direction, so I'm in principle against criminalizing things that aren't crimes in a real sense.
So I'm in favor of legal drugs and prostitution, for instance.

Unlike the US, Sweden seems to use "smart sanctions" to influence behavior. For instance: visiting a prostitute is illegal, being a prostitute is not.

I live in a country where prostitution is legal but a recent raid on the The Hague redlight district uncovered many cases of forced prostitution. And we only have to look at alcohol problems in Russia to see what a legal drug can do to a society.

So, I'm curious. Are Sweden's policies successful?
Does Sweden have less drug use, crime, alcoholism, forced prostitution etc?

Anyone here who can dredge up some realistic numbers?
 
As compared to what? A million different factors differ between any two countries; what we really need is a parallel universe with a Sweden that has a different set of laws.

How could you possibly test it otherwise? Assign different laws to different swedes based on their SSN(e.g. odd-even date of birth)?
 
Could I please be assigned to the "allowed to do stuff group" ?

I'd be prepared to move to Sweden. ;)
 
Lets look at some figures...

Alcohol use, liters per capita per year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption

Moldova: 18.22
Russia: 15.76
United Kingdom: 13.37
Sweden: 10.30
Canada: 9.77
United States: 9.44
Norway: 7.81 (Norway has similar restrictions to Sweden)
China: 5.91
Malta: 4,27
Singapore: 1,55

No, there does not seem to be a direct connection between alcohol consumption and severity of secular restrictions. However, it is worth noting that Muslim countries tend to populate the lower part of the list.

I could't readily find data for drugs and prostitution.

Hans
 
Lets look at some figures...

Alcohol use, liters per capita per year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption

Moldova: 18.22
Russia: 15.76
United Kingdom: 13.37
Sweden: 10.30
Canada: 9.77
United States: 9.44
Norway: 7.81 (Norway has similar restrictions to Sweden)
China: 5.91
Malta: 4,27
Singapore: 1,55

No, there does not seem to be a direct connection between alcohol consumption and severity of secular restrictions. However, it is worth noting that Muslim countries tend to populate the lower part of the list.

I could't readily find data for drugs and prostitution.

Hans


Please note that Sweden's 10.3L/year/capita is likely to be based on official sales numbers. I don't have any official numbers that outline the ratio, but I would guess from my own experience that the number can be at least doubled: in the south, alcohol is purchased from Denmark and Germany and brought in by the trunk load. There is a huge market for smuggle booze in the entire country, but mostly the east coast as we only have Norway to the west and they tend to be even more straight laced and taxed. If anything we smuggle booze TO Norway.

Then, up north and in the sparesly populated parts there is also a thriving cottage industry of moonshining which occasionally leads to poisonings. Moonshiners tend not to ask for ID when selling either. Oh, and many homes have their own still for personal needs. My father certainly had one and I learned to mix up the sour mash at about age 4.

I'm not even counting the people who make illegal strenght (you can make your own alcohol provided it holds less than, I think 3.25%vol or some such thing) dandelion wine, elderberry, cherry, plum - well anything that will ferment really, including the connoisseurs who find no other way of obtaining proper mead than to make it themselves, as the stuff Systembolaget sells has probably never even seen a honey bee.

Oh, and you also have to calculate with whoever is drinking my per capita allotment. There are quite a few, discreetly, teetotal people in Sweden and someone is drinking their share.
 
Please note that Sweden's 10.3L/year/capita is likely to be based on official sales numbers. I don't have any official numbers that outline the ratio, but I would guess from my own experience that the number can be at least doubled: in the south, alcohol is purchased from Denmark and Germany and brought in by the trunk load. There is a huge market for smuggle booze in the entire country, but mostly the east coast as we only have Norway to the west and they tend to be even more straight laced and taxed. If anything we smuggle booze TO Norway.

Then, up north and in the sparesly populated parts there is also a thriving cottage industry of moonshining which occasionally leads to poisonings. Moonshiners tend not to ask for ID when selling either. Oh, and many homes have their own still for personal needs. My father certainly had one and I learned to mix up the sour mash at about age 4.

I'm not even counting the people who make illegal strenght (you can make your own alcohol provided it holds less than, I think 3.25%vol or some such thing) dandelion wine, elderberry, cherry, plum - well anything that will ferment really, including the connoisseurs who find no other way of obtaining proper mead than to make it themselves, as the stuff Systembolaget sells has probably never even seen a honey bee.

Oh, and you also have to calculate with whoever is drinking my per capita allotment. There are quite a few, discreetly, teetotal people in Sweden and someone is drinking their share.

The table I used lists both the official and the unofficial amount, but I agree that the latter must necessarily be based on estimates. Also, in Southern Sweden, there is a steady traffic over the border to Denmark lugging tons of alcohol eastwards every day, so the real figures for those two countries are no doubt slightly closer (Denmark lists with the same figure as the UK).


ETA, oh, you already mentioned the border trade.

Hans
 
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The table I used lists both the official and the unofficial amount, but I agree that the latter must necessarily be based on estimates. Also, in Southern Sweden, there is a steady traffic over the border to Denmark lugging tons of alcohol eastwards every day, so the real figures for those two countries are no doubt slightly closer (Denmark lists with the same figure as the UK).


ETA, oh, you already mentioned the border trade.

Hans

Ah, I see they have calculated with estimates of unofficial consumption, that makes the numbers a little more reliable for sure, but I'm still surprised at 10.3L/an/cap - it still seems low to me, but of course I may have a skewed view having grown up in an area where it was more common than not to down a
.75L bottle of vodka or Brännvin per weekend. At least. My dad (who I grant you is probably not representative of humanity, much less any sub-population of same) could easily down 4*.75L per weekend. On his own. It helped that it only cost him the price of a few Kgs of *****, a couple packs of ****** ***** and a small pot of tomato purée of course.

If the people of my municipality had been representative of Sweden, I would say consumption is actually four times the stated amount. Fortunately, I think they're not. (Dear FSM please say they're not)

Sweden usually show good response to government campaigns appealing to our better selves than to prohibitions and intense taxation, though. We're obstinate like that: ask us nicely to please lay off the booze and the fags and half the nation quits over night. Tax us and prohibit **** and people take it up just because. Of course, it helped that we used to have a high level of trust in our government officials. That stopped in 2001.

During the seventies and eighties there were two major campaigns that actually did impact people's drinking and smoking. The people who grew up during the "Non Smoking Generation" campaign actually took up smoking to a much smaller extent than those before - who were simply told it was a nasty habit - and the one after - who got their tobacco taxed until it cost so much to smoke it became hip like Cristal.

The somewhat naive "Spola Kröken" ("Flush the Booze") probably had no huge impact on consumption (although we have fairly decent numbers for expecting mothers who dutifully stay away from alcohol and tobacco) but neither did taxing it by %vol until a bottle of Explorer (notorious in Sweden for being high in alc/krona and therefore so popular Systembolaget kept them under the counter to save the staff having to run back and forth for the same thing - yes, you could only buy over counter, that has since changed - prompting it to be nicknamed "Half a Bend" because staff bent halfway to the floor to get it) - and a bottle of Chateaunoef du Pape cost about the same... (Yes, I'm exaggerating, but damn our winos smelt good.)

Sweden and alcohol has a long and sad story. In the early nineteenth century it was common to pay workers in booze. In the eighteenth century men women and children started the day with a dram - it was considered healthy. (And compared to Stockholm's water supply, it probably was.)

Getting the common man sober used to be the preoccupation of free kirks, temperance movement, orders of different kinds and the unions/workers' movements.

Keeping him pished used to be what state and employers did. Of course, that all changed once state and employers were made responsible for the workers' health. Then it was all suddenly: don't drink this, don't smoke that and for ****'s sake, whatever you do don't eat anything!

So the question "Is it working?" - well, probably not. It seemed to be working for a brief time somewhere between 1955 and 1992 - because back then we still thought that they governed us by our leave and that we were in it together. If the surgeon general said "Don't smoke that" most of us went "Ok." These days, that would probably result in a request for SG to go **** himself.

You could say there was a correlation, but no proven causation, between our strict measures and our relatively moderat consumption of AllThingsBadForYou.

(And just like the Mormons, working by the notion that the sum of all vice is a constant - not partaking in anything of the above, we ate a lot of sugar and made a lot of babies.)
 
What, just visiting? ;)
No, but .....

@Whatthebutlersaw:

Interesting story! Hope you found a more moderate lifestyle than your old man. I can recognize the reaction to taxation, although Danes may be a little less extreme.

I think the worst disfavour ever done to avoidance of alcohol misuse is that various religious movements have entered on the side of temperance.

In Denmark, if you state that you don't drink alcohol, most people will assume that you are either:

1) A dry alcoholic.
2) A religious nut.
3) Pregnant (somehow, the message of not drinking during pregnancy has been driven home with considerable success, yay!).
4) Driving tonight (somehow, it has become respected in wide circles, even among young people, that drive and drink don't mix, double yay!).

However, just looking after your health is considered a bit weird.


Hans
 
Oh, we mentioned border shopping. I actually think border shopping is symptomatic for the (lack of) effect of behaviour-regulating legislation:

It seems that people everywhere are ready to spend whole days and gallons of fuel to drive across borders and pile into overcrowded and (relative to local trade) overpriced border shops to hoard whatever merchandise is reputed to be cheaper 'over there', or even has been cheaper (there are still Danes who travel to Sweden to purchase nuts, although the average Danish family uses about a pound of nuts per year, and prices have been roughly the same for decades).

Especially, people seem to be willing to pay up to and slightly over the home price for any merchandise that can be obtained 'tax free' across the border. Seems they prefer to line the pockets of some foreign tradesman rather than support their own society.

Hans
 
I hear these swedes even outlawed murder. These people, trying to legislate morality...
 
I'd guess that the alcohol data is converted to pure alcohol equivalent?

So ten liters per year could be 300 bottles of beer, 100 bottles of wine, or 30 liters of distilled spirits.
 

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