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Supremes to decide if lying is protected speech.

steve s

Philosopher
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
5,865
Tomorrow the Supreme Court is going to hear a case concerning whether lying about military service is protected speech.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/21/justice/scotus-stolen-valor/

Xavier Alvarez ran for public office in California touting an impressive resume, including claims that he was a recipient of the highest military decoration awarded by the U.S. government, the Medal of Honor, for combat bravery.

Personally, if the person is not trying to profit from their lies, then I don't think it should be illegal. In this case, however, the person was running for public office on his fictitious record which would certainly count as profiting.

Steve S
 
I bet this will be 5-4 with the Righties favoring the lies. Didn't they already rule that it's ok to lie in political ads?
 
Well what value is "protected speech". Does protected speech keep you from losing your job/office?

I would figure it IS protected speech, but being protected speech doesn't protect the speaker too much.
 
I bet this will be 5-4 with the Righties favoring the lies. Didn't they already rule that it's ok to lie in political ads?

You mean the "righties" such as the ACLU?

Personally, I'm a lefty who is leery of any attempt to minimize or reduce First Amendment protections.
 
Well what value is "protected speech".
It means your right to engage in it is protected. ("Congress shall make no law"--broadened by the 14th Amendment to include other levels of government.)

Does protected speech keep you from losing your job/office?
No. The First Amendment protects your right to engage in protected speech, but it does not protect you from consequences of that speech. (And it also protects others' rights to point out that you're a liar-liar-pants-on-fire.

I would figure it IS protected speech, but being protected speech doesn't protect the speaker too much.
It protects the speaker from laws that would make that speech act illegal.
 
Well it sounds like there's no way to rule against this guy. If he lied and got into office, that's fine to lie, but he should still lose his job BECAUSE he lied. The law's already in place for this I assume (through impeachment) but there's no way you can design a law that makes it illegal to lie to get elected. It'd be nice but I doubt there's any way to rule against this guy.

But I'm always prepared to be surprised.
 
That would be a shame, Ben. Criminalization of lies is on the books all over the place.

In particular, fraud is illegal in both federal and state statutes.

I am wondering how this case got to the Supremes in the first place?

I hope you are wrong, Ben. If you cannot criminalize lies, how do you prosecute fraud?

I was under the impression that First Amendment protection was intended to protect the truth when spoken, so that truth was not suppressed by the sovereign, nor the government/state.

Have we in America come so far away from our first principles that this has been forgotten?

We shall see.

I suppose I need to look into the details of this case to understand what's going on.

@Cain: sorry, that's a violation of XIV amendment. ;)

As the U.S. Supreme Court said unanimously in a 1971 libel case, "It can hardly be doubted that the constitutional guarantee [of free speech] has its fullest and most urgent application precisely to the conduct of campaigns for political office."

So states have found it hard to enact laws against false political advertising — and even harder to make them work.
I find that premise, of nine judges, to be flawed. But I think I understand the problem they were trying to address, wherein differences of opinion will be attempted to be suppressed as errors in fact ... not a trivial issue, when I consider what I have seen in political noise over the past thirty years.

This helps me understand the Washington State court comments on the problem.

Washington State Supreme Court: Instead of relying on the State to silence false political speech, the First Amendment requires our dependence on even more speech to bring forth truth. … The First Amendment exists precisely to protect against laws such as [the Washington state truth-in-advertising law] which suppress ideas and inhibit free discussion of governmental affairs.
 
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Isn't that just perjury?
Only if you do it under oath.

I'm siding with the "right to lie" crowd. It is the responsibility of his political opponant to reveal the lies and the responsibility of the voting public to know the difference.

Besides, there's always the problem with delusional people. Remember when Ronald Regan tried to give the medal of honor to a fictional character he had remembered from a movie script? I doubth he was intentionally decieving anyone. I believe he was truly confuse.
 
Joe beat me to it. I should have finished my post before I went to the kitchen.

I'm gonna lean with the "right to lie" crowd, too. Fraud can be prosecuted as fraud. If we start busting people for lying there'll never be enough jails.
 
Right I am with the "right to lie" crowd but I wonder where the fruits of a lie, such as a job, are protected. I don't think this case is interested in that though.
 
I am betting we will see a unanimous court against allowing the criminalization of lies.
Lies should be protected speech.

'I killed me fitty Japoneez in hand to hand combat in the the Pacific' is a fine old tradition.

Human beings are by nature, liars. It is part of the developmental process, commencing somewhere around age 3

No court or legislature could make that suddenly go away in any case...

And, it would be pretty hard to pursue police work if cops couldn't lie.



Fraud and perjury on the other hand are a different matter. Putting in your resume SEAL Team 6 1994 -99, MOH 1997 in order to get chosen over other applicants for a job isn't just harmless chatter.

A group of SEALs tried to keep a website up exposing fakes, and they were literally overwhelmed by the numbers of posers. (And that was without even bothering to go after the barflys).

Police, deputies, elected officials, college professors, a consultant on terrorism to a major network, guys running martial arts schools, and so forth.


Yeah, I would be OK with the Court drawing the line somewhere.
 
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