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Suffering Makes Life Meaningful ?

Skeptical Greg

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Skeptical Greg
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David Swidler suggested this might be the subject of a new thread as we discussed it here...


I had said:

" I know there is a lot of tap dancing around the idea that God causes suffering as opposed to ' letting it happen ', you know , free will and all that.. "

To which David replied:
David Swidler said:
:)

Oh, I wouldn't say it's tap dancing. It's a logical consequence of such a belief system. For existence to have meaning - one of the goals of belief - then human actions must have real consequences. There has to be real suffering, or we might as well be playing some game. Going with the Western idea of an omnipotent, benevolent God, such a God would have to "restrain himself" from preventing all suffering, undermining the larger goal of the "greater good," which is making human existence meaningful (this thread is hardly the place to explore that; feel free to start a new thread).
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So, would it mean less if you stubbed your toe and it didn't hurt?
 
Whats the line of thinking behind suffering makes life meaingfull?

Is it something like; we appreciate something more if we work hard for it? What about something that is givin to you that has great meaning like a gift from someone you love? You did not suffer or work for it but it is meaningfull and important to you none the less.


I think that suffering makes life suck. Period. Unless your a masochist in which case suffering is just dandy.
 
Does my job only have meaning if I am under the constant threat of being fired?

No, it has meaning because of the positive results it provides to my employer, and to myself. I don't suffer at my job. In fact, I hardly consider it work, I enjoy it so much. Yet my job has incredible meaning to me, and to my employer.
 
Iacchus said:
So, would it mean less if you stubbed your toe and it didn't hurt?
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That is what some would have us believe....

Pain serves a useful function.. Keeps us from roasting our chestnuts on an open fire, etc...

However, using pain as punishment would seem to be somewhat undignified for any God worth worshipping...
 
Oh, and I also meant to add..

....or we might as well be playing some game.
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And what's so bad about playing a game..

What is less meaningfull about a universe in which we are playing a fun game as opposed to being hammered by hurricanes and earthquakes?

An abused child, doesn't know they are being abused ...They think that is the way life is supposed to be..

Does their life become less meaningfull if you take their suffering away ?
 
Religion presupposes our lives have meaning independent of that which we make. With that in mind, I would agree with David, in that the religious require some measuring stick for their assigned meaning. I don't necessarily think suffering has to be the gage, generally speaking, but on a case by case basis, that tenet certainly seems to matter.
 
uruk said:
I think that suffering makes life suck. Period. Unless your a masochist in which case suffering is just dandy.
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So, you are willing to live in a world that contains no satisfaction?

Diogenes said:
I meant to add:

Let me ask this first ..


If suffering makes life meaningfull ( in the mind of those who hold these beliefs ), then what makes existence in Heaven meaningfull ?
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The release from suffering and the experience of satisfaction of course.
 
Diogenes said:
How can you conceive of something that doesn't exist? What is satisfaction, if there is no dissatisfaction to compare it to ?
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If you are incapable of learning from your mistakes, then no, things will never get better. As I understand it, ony the incorrigible wind up in hell.
 
Iacchus said:
If you are incapable of learning from your mistakes, then no, things will never get better. As I understand it, ony the incorrigible wind up in hell.
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But if you were an omnipotent God, you could make everything as good as it can get to begin with.. Not doing so, means you prefer to see pain and suffering, or you are not omnipotent..
 
Diogenes said:
But if you were an omnipotent God, you could make everything as good as it can get to begin with.. Not doing so, means you prefer to see pain and suffering, or you are not omnipotent..
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If you take suffering, you take away free will, and all you get is robots.
 
Oh, I wouldn't say it's tap dancing. It's a logical consequence of such a belief system. For existence to have meaning - one of the goals of belief - then human actions must have real consequences. There has to be real suffering, or we might as well be playing some game.
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But human actions don't always have consequences in this world. There are many murders who have never been caught and are not suffering as a consequence of their actions. Furthermore, there are babies born with incurable, painful diseases - surely their suffering is not the consequence of their actions.
 
From the dictonary:

a : to have in the mind as a purpose : INTEND <she means to win> -- sometimes used interjectionally with I, chiefly in informal speech for emphasis <he throws, I mean, hard> or to introduce a phrase restating the point of a preceding phrase <we try to answer what we can, but I mean we're not God -- Bobbie Ann Mason> b : to design for or destine to a specified purpose or future <I was meant to teach>
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If one claims there is a meaning to life, they are claiming someone made said life with a meaning in mind. The general assumption required to ask "what is the meaning of life?" or "what makes life meaningful" is that some intelligence created us with a purpose in mind.

Personally, I find anyone who attempts to find "the meaning of life" to be following a red herring. There is no god. We evolved. 'Meaning' is our device, and nothing else.
 
I think there is a bigger question to ask here:

What the heck is "meaning"??

Meaning, to me, is what you make it. If some people find that life without suffering is meaningless, well, so be it.

What the hell does that mean, anyway? (pun intended)
 
bagtaggar said:
I think there is a bigger question to ask here:

What the heck is "meaning"??

Meaning, to me, is what you make it. If some people find that life without suffering is meaningless, well, so be it.

What the hell does that mean, anyway? (pun intended)
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Oh come on. If everyone made up their own definitions to words, we'd lose our language. When someone uses a word, you can't make up your own definition and assert "that's what they mean't." Asking what the meaning of life is asks exactly what the definitions of each of those words imply, and nothing else.
 
uruk said:
Whats the line of thinking behind suffering makes life meaingfull?

Is it something like; we appreciate something more if we work hard for it? What about something that is givin to you that has great meaning like a gift from someone you love? You did not suffer or work for it but it is meaningfull and important to you none the less.


I think that suffering makes life suck. Period. Unless your a masochist in which case suffering is just dandy.
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I agree with Uruk anaylsis.
I think suffering may contribute in making life meaningful.
But it is not the only thing that make life meaningful.
And certainly not the choice of many people, as a primary contributor to meaning in their life.
 
Diogenes said:
I meant to add:

Let me ask this first ..


If suffering makes life meaningfull ( in the mind of those who hold these beliefs ), then what makes existence in Heaven meaningfull ?
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I would say, some appeal to their followers to endure whole life of suffering during their own earthly-life. For a holy cause.

And promise them that when they are in heaven, they will find their life is very meaningful. (because they suffered to get into heaven).

Very useful for managing the expectations of slaves (what ever form of it).
 
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