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Sueing the Airline Industry...

Joined
Nov 15, 2001
Messages
6,513
...or should I just sue those who have 'offended' me???

Okay, so negotiations are offically over between me and my third airline corporation.

Being in a wheelchair, flying is a whole other experience, and I have been trying to improve the system for years.

Airplanes aren't made for people in wheelchairs, so I write before I ever fly requesting they upgrade me for free, for having to put up with this archaic system. They refuse, and point me toward the ACAA (Air Carrier Access Act), a wordy document that basically says they do NOT have to modify their systems, but rather provide merely "reasonable assistance" getting to and from one's seat. You see, in order to board or get off a plane, I require or shall I say I am required to be carted on and off like so much cargo straped down to an "isle chair".

My latest venture found me waiting almost a half a hour for the loading crew to show up, before I took it upon myself to de-plane, as I dragged my ass down a flight of stairs in order to make my connecting flight on time.

I KNOW that I only represent like 5-10% of the population, but why don't I deserve independent access to air travel? IF not, then why CAN'T I just ship myself to where ever I want to go?? It is cheaper, but the service is the same...
 
Sounds like your just trying to scam a free first class upgrade.

What good does an upgrade do anyway? Dont you still run into the same access problems?
 
To Tmy:

Well, I personally believe that the entire system is in massive need of improvment.

First and foremost for safety's sake.

There is NO need for the pilots and the passengers to board the plane through the same portal. In fact, it should be impossible for passengers to access or even view the cockpit at all!

That the present system is flawed, is my singular point.

That has failed to serve me on 3 different occasions with 3 different airlines is my personal beef.

They literally don't care if you didn't like the service, no one else in the industry does either... So I'm screwed everywhere I look.
 
Re: To Tmy:

King of the Americas said:
Well, I personally believe that the entire system is in massive need of improvment.

First and foremost for safety's sake.

There is NO need for the pilots and the passengers to board the plane through the same portal. In fact, it should be impossible for passengers to access or even view the cockpit at all!

. . . and therefore you need to be in first class??!

You lost me somewhere in the reasoning there. Can you make the middle part more explicit?
 
Im 6'3. Coach seats are no picnic for me. But I know what Im in for. Flying sucks but its a cost benefit thing. I choose to suffer in coach than to buy a first class ticket.

As for the pilot thing. Big deal. You can have the pilots enter after the passengers, or before. Then lock the cockpit door. Theres no need to waste space making 2 entrances.
 
To Tmy:

Oh, my bad.

As in my MANY letters, I explain that by instantly upgrading people like myself, they take it in the chin, financially.

So this creates an incentive to improve the system, so that I have to PAY to use the First Class service.

As the system is today, even First Class travelers (in wheelchairs) are made to feel like cargo...
 
He makes a point though about the system being fundamentally flawed.

That's a big beef I have with Republican presidents since Reagan. For a platform that supposedly touts the virtues of an un-encumbered market place as having the ability to self-correct in everyone's favor based on the demands of its consumers...they are always the first ones to jump in and bail out industries failing for that reason.

Take Amtrak for example. A company so horribly managed they have a freaking monopoly and they still can't stay in the black.

Instead of bailing them out every-time, let 'em sink and see what happens. I'd be willing to bet the void in passenger rail would quickly be filled by someone who could do something useful with it.

The same with Airlines. I know If American and US wennt under that would have had devstating effects on an already weak economy. But I remember when Bush Sr, and Reagan before him kept trying to step in on behalf of Eastern Airlines when the employee strike threatened to shut down Eastern.

Who cares? Let the private company sort its own freaking problems out. I don't need my tax dollars spent to so federal heavys can break a strike.

Never mind the pension embezzelment and assorted crookedness that went with it...

Anyway, KOA you have my agreement that as long as the FED is comitted to keeping the major carriers in business, you're going to have to put up with crappy business from crappy companies.
 
To TALL Tmy:

It isn't about space, it is about access.

I should be able to get to my seat, by myself.

I don't get why I should have to get the Hannibal Lector Treatment, just because I need to fly? Moreover, why aren't I due some compensation, for not even getting THAT much service?? I mean is it "reasonable" that I had to drag myself off a plane in order to make a flight???
 
To Andonyx:

Humm...

I'll conceed that.

But, I would offer that America is all about the image of the moment.

Allow me to paint you a picture:

"Young men in uniforms are being loaded one at a time into their seats in 'coach', like so much steerage while several drag themselves into their First Class seats willingly rather than suffer the Hannibal Lector strapped in style of boarding."

THIS is how we would treat our War Wounded!?!?

WHAMMO...

And that is how you affect change.

But...I don't know if I can go through with it. There were some people dragging themselves up some courthouse stairs the other day, and it looked like their were makig a spectical of themselves.

I mean they had a good point, but they went about making it 'differently' than I would have.

Sadly, in America image is everything.
 
Re: To TALL Tmy:

King of the Americas said:
It isn't about space, it is about access.

I should be able to get to my seat, by myself.

I don't get why I should have to get the Hannibal Lector Treatment, just because I need to fly? Moreover, why aren't I due some compensation, for not even getting THAT much service?? I mean is it "reasonable" that I had to drag myself off a plane in order to make a flight???

I think that your request is entirely reasonable. If you were (heaven forfend) ti travel by rail in the UK, you would receive assistance in boarding the train but would be able to make your way to your own space and would have access to a (admittedly repugnant) toilet with disabled access. There is however a limited number of spaces for disabled travellers (because train seats cannot be removed easily because if they were football hooligans would).

The airlines/plane makers would respond as follows:

Cutting another hole in the side of the plane for the pilots is impractical for current aircraft and any which have already been designed. It could maybe be incorporated into the design of aircraft entering service after 2020 (or some other impossibly late date).

Making the aisles on an aircraft accessible for disabled traveller would require the removal of one seat per row. This would make the airline economically unviable. Securing access at any airport is not possible only those with jetways can be sure to provide access.

Only (insert improbably low figure here) % of our passengers require assistance in borading the aircraft and of those only (insert improbably lower figure here) % have expressed any dissatisfaction with our arrangements.



Unfortunately in this marketplace, the disabled dollar doesn't seem to carry much weight. I would suggest that you contact your political representatitve and make them aware of your issue. Create a stink in the media. Get the government to issue a law compelling airlines to make better provision for disabled passengers.
 
NO need...

...to retro-fit the current system to allow for such access.

THAT is why you attach the financial penality of the instant upgrades. Sooner or later they'll get tired of paying for instant upgrades, and order systems intended to serve everyone.

Right now, there is no incentive for change.
 
My heart goes out to you King of the Americas. I have some challenged (isn't that PC?) friends and worked with many.

The airlines should have something in place to accomodate, as you say, 5% - 10% of the population. For as much as they (airlines) cry poverty, they've been feeding at the government teat for years.

I must admit though, I love those handicap stalls in washrooms. At my last job I could barely sit and manage the paperwork in the minuscule "abled" stalls that were there.

Charlie (wheelchair power!) Monoxide
 
Funny, both my parents are quadrapalegics and have been confined to a wheelchair since adulthood. They both seem to understand what reasonable access means and yes, neither is ecstatic about being carried onboard. It's unfortunate that you have to suffer the indignity of being carried to and from your seat but life isn't fair. You do have the ability to fly, and as for not getting compensation for your inability to reach your seat, the airline get's you there as part of the service included in the ticket.

On the other hand if we Americans keep ballooning the aisle and chair sizes will increase to what you need to have full access.
 
To Agammamon:

At what level are your parents operational?

Surely they aren't 'comlete' quads...?

But moreover, I have accepted that the world isn't designed for people like me. I understand that there will be moments when I will NEED assistance. That said, I worked my ass off in order to re-attain the level of independence I have. And it is a slap in the face to have to give that up, just because I need to fly.

'I' DON'T have to be placed into my seat by someone else, nor do I feel that it is okay to de-humanize people by forcing them to into the Hannibal Lector position.

Wouldn't your parents MUCH rather prefer to board the plane not unlike they would a public bus? Where they'd just wheel aboard, and then a travel service agent could just buckle them down, chair and all.

Why DON'T all people deserve independence access???

I am not asking that they build a sidewalk down into the Grand Canyon. I am just asking for slightly wider doors.

OR

That they suffer some kind of meaningful penalty for failing to provide access in an approperiate manner.
 
Well, KOA I am not a lawyer, but I suppose that you could sue the airlines as based on the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).

There have been quite a few lawsuits filed on this act (including one by my ex-wife), but almost all of them are dismissed by the judge (including the one filed by my ex-wife) and I expect the one you would file would be dismissed as well.

In short, the law calls for 'reasonable accommodation' for disabled people. And I doubt that the redesign of commercial aircraft (which, at the least, would cost many millions) could be classified as 'reasonable' when there are other methods which can be used (upgrading your ticket to first-class, having someone help you into and out of your seat, showing up early, etc.).

Good luck!
 
To Crossbow:

Well, my oint is that they aren't even capable of delivering 'reasonable accomidations'.

In my case, I wrote weeks ahead of my flight, requesting the equipment and personel I would need for my flights.

All, that I asked is that I be given an opportunity to make my connecting flight. Sure delays happen and many people have missed flights, but should 'I' be the ONLY one on a flight that misses a conection, but because the service I requested ahead of time is absent???

AGAIN, is it 'reasonable' that I should have to drag myself off a plane in order to make a flight?

---

Here is an article I wrote about my experience(s) with Air Travel:

Airline Travel
By: Albert James Knabe

Do you enjoy it?

I mean, I can remember a time as a young boy when I could only dream of getting to fly in a plane. I even remember the first time I ever rode in a single engine plane in perfect detail. To fly like the birds, high as the clouds, and as fast as could be imagined... Aboard an actual airline, I had visions of beautiful women bringing me warm milk and cookies followed by a pillow and a blanket. A trip across America, that once took weeks was now accomplished in only hours...

Well, so much for fanciful dreams. Today the reality is much different, as passengers are sardine-canned into smelly seats, connected through two flights before arriving at their destination, while being served a small packet of 6 individual pretzels and a tiny bottle of water. To fly half way across America, say from Texas to Pennsylvania takes now 12 hours, including layover.

My reality is even worse. If you have flown recently, you may have noticed that the isles are pretty thin, often times no wider than 17-22 inches. Thus navigating my wheelchair to and from my seat is quite impossible, disabling me independent access to and from my seat. BUT, thanks to the ACAA (Air Carrier Access Act) the airlines are required to provide me with "reasonable assistance" getting to and from my seat.

To date, this includes use of an "isle chair". This device is similar to a dolly that you'd use to haul a washer or drier around crossed with a Hannibal Lector cart. I am asked to board a thin straight-backed chair, be strapped in with my arms crossed over my chest, and then carted to my seat like so much cargo. It is quite a sight, and most of the time I am forced to do this in front of an audience of onlookers. You see, airlines aren't required to have an isle cart at every gate. So even though you called days or even weeks before your flight, there may not be one there to utilize, resulting in delays and embarrassment for me, my travel companions, and the rest of the passengers on the plane.

My most recent travel experience was the worst to date. From Pennsylvania to Texas, I had a connection in Chicago. A 45 minute layover to travel all the way across O'Hare a normal walk of 30 minutes. It was an "Express" flight that required passengers to deplane directly onto the tarmac. 'I' required a lift mechanism, along with an isle chair, and had called & written the CRO (Customer Relations Officer- Disability Specialist) for my travel company and explained my dilemma. I requested that they have the tools necessary for me to deplane, ready and available ASAP upon our landing and pondered if it were possible that I be allowed off the plane first, so that I could more easily make my flight. The Officer took my request, but was certain to make no promises.

When we landed, the equipment (lift & isle cart) WERE available. However, the personnel to operate it was NOT. Therefore, I waited to deplane last, instead of first, hoping that assistance would arrive soon. Ten to 15 minutes later, I was alone on the plane and still waiting for assistance. Well, I mean alone, as in the last passenger on board. The flight attendant, a mechanic, and the Captain were still there. I waited another 7-8 minutes and decided that the ONLY way for me to make my connecting flight was to deboard myself. So I threw myself onto the floor and dragged my ass down a flight of stairs, got into my chair and was off to my next flight

Then I managed to talk this golf cart driver into towing me across the airport (against regulations), but he could only go half way. Arriving at my gate, I was out of breath, but just barely on time. The ticket taker noted that had I been even 5 more minutes later, they'd have been gone. Luckily, the flight had already been delayed due to a technical problem with the lavatory. However, once again there was no isle chair to be found and it was easy to see disgruntledness in the faces of the other passengers as I was finally boarded some 10-15 minutes later.

All this, even though I called the airline, e-mailed, sent them an actual a letter, AND handed them a print out of my request for my return flights when I arrived for my initial flight. And still I think I suffered from rather 'unreasonable assistance'...

I could understand if Bob Nobody shows up in a wheelchair, demanding immediate service, not getting it right then. But come on, I made EVERY possible effort to request the minimal standards demanded by the ACAA and I STILL ended up dragging myself around to get where I was going, on time.

I have traveled on 3 different airlines, wrote the same letters, made the same requests, and received the same kind of treatment. On the first, I watched as my wheelchair was dropped down a flight of metal stairs. On the second, I missed my connecting flight due to a lack of boarding devices, and now on my third carrier I had to drag myself off the plane to make my flight.

So what would YOU do?

Applicable ACAA Provisions:

§ 382.39 Provision of services and equipment.
Carriers shall ensure that qualified individuals with a disability are provided the following services and equipment:
(a) Carriers shall provide assistance requested by or on behalf of qualified individuals with a disability, or offered by air carrier personnel and accepted by qualified individuals with a disability, in enplaning and deplaning. The delivering carrier shall be responsible for assistance in making flight connections and transportation between gates.
(1) This assistance shall include, as needed, the services personnel and the use of ground wheelchairs, boarding wheelchairs, on-board wheelchairs where provided in accordance with this part, and ramps or mechanical lifts.
(2) Boarding shall be by level-entry loading bridges or accessible passenger lounges, where these means are available. Where these means are unavailable, assistance in boarding aircraft with 30 or fewer passenger seats shall be provided as set forth in Sec. 382.40, and assistance in boarding aircraft with 31 or more seats shall be provided as set forth in Sec. 382.40a. In no case shall carrier personnel hand-carry a passenger in order to provide boarding or deplaning assistance (i.e., directly pick up the passenger's body in the arms of one or more carrier personnel to effect a change of level that the passenger needs to enter or leave the aircraft). Hand-carrying of passengers is permitted only for emergency evacuations.


§ 382.40a Boarding assistance for large aircraft.
(a) Paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section apply to air carriers conducting passenger operations with aircraft having a seating capacity of 31 or more passengers at airports with 10,000 or more annual enplanements, in any situation where passengers are not boarded by level-entry loading bridges or accessible passenger lounges.
(b) Carriers shall, in cooperation with the airports they serve, provide boarding assistance to individuals with disabilities using mechanical lifts, ramps, or other suitable devices that do not require employees to lift or carry passengers up stairs.
(c) (1) Each carrier that does not provide passenger boarding by level-entry loading bridges or accessible passenger lounges shall negotiate in good faith with the airport operator at each airport concerning the acquisition and use of boarding assistance devices. The carrier(s) and the airport operator shall, by no later than March 4, 2002, sign a written agreement allocating responsibility for meeting the boarding assistance requirements of this section between or among the parties. The agreement shall be made available, on request, to representatives of the Department of Transportation.
(2) The agreement shall provide that all actions necessary to ensure accessible boarding for passengers with disabilities are completed as soon as practicable, but no later than December 4, 2002. All air carriers and airport operators involved are jointly responsible for the timely and complete implementation of the agreement.
(3) Under the agreement, carriers may require that passengers wishing to receive boarding assistance requiring the use of a lift for a flight check in for the flight one hour before the scheduled departure time for the flight. If the passenger checks in after this time, the carrier shall nonetheless provide the boarding assistance by lift if it can do so by making a reasonable effort, without delaying the flight.
(4) Level-entry boarding assistance under the agreement is not required with respect to float planes or with respect to any widebody aircraft determined by the Department of Transportation to be unsuitable for boarding assistance by lift, ramp, or other device on the basis that no existing boarding assistance device on the market will accommodate the aircraft without a significant risk of serious damage to the aircraft or injury to passengers or employees.
(5) When level-entry boarding assistance is not required to be provided under paragraph (c)(4) of this section, or cannot be provided as required by paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section (e.g., because of mechanical problems with a lift), boarding assistance shall be provided by any available means to which the passenger consents, except hand-carrying as defined in Sec. 382.39 (a)(2).
(6) The agreement shall ensure that all lifts and other accessibility equipment are maintained in proper working condition.
(d) The training of carrier personnel required by Sec. 382.61 shall include, for those personnel involved in providing boarding assistance, training to proficiency in the use of the boarding assistance equipment used by the carrier and appropriate boarding assistance procedures that safeguard the safety and dignity of passengers.
 
So...

...if they promised to deliver my service, and they didn't aren't they in violation of this specific part of the ACAA:

"§ 382.39(a) Carriers shall provide assistance requested by or on behalf of qualified individuals with a disability, or offered by air carrier personnel and accepted by qualified individuals with a disability, in enplaning and deplaning. The delivering carrier shall be responsible for assistance in making flight connections and transportation between gates."

I had to drag my ass off a plane in order to get where I was going.

Didn't they fail to fulfill their end of the contract?
 
Re: So...

King of the Americas said:
...if they promised to deliver my service, and they didn't aren't they in violation of this specific part of the ACAA:

"§ 382.39(a) Carriers shall provide assistance requested by or on behalf of qualified individuals with a disability, or offered by air carrier personnel and accepted by qualified individuals with a disability, in enplaning and deplaning. The delivering carrier shall be responsible for assistance in making flight connections and transportation between gates."

I had to drag my ass off a plane in order to get where I was going.

Didn't they fail to fulfill their end of the contract?

Well I hesitated to provide you with an answer until I pondered your problem a bit more.

For what it is worth, I think your complaints are valid and that you were wronged.

However, I doubt that these complaints would make for a good lawsuit, and I doubt that the airlines will change how there current planes are designed in order to better accommodate handicapped passengers. Perhaps in the future, aircraft will be better designed to handle handicapped passengers, and the airline personnel will have more skills in dealing with handicapped passengers, but I would have to say that is several years off at best.

Therefore, I would not depend upon the airlines to solve the problem.

As for solving your problem, the best solution I can think of is to charter a plane that specializes in dealing with people who have severe health problems (there are companies that do this sort of thing). Of course this will be expensive so it may mean that you will have to give up flying as a means of travel.
 
To Crossbow:

Yeah, I am not happy about that...

I DON'T think I should just sit here and get screwed.

The government subsidizes them don't they? Shouldn't they be forced to follow government enacted Acts?? If they fail to do so, shouldn't they have to face a meaningful penalty???

Man, I think this is a trough of bull butter!
 

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