Student fees to hit £7000

Undesired Walrus

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
11,691
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11507537

Vince Cable has admitted that Liberal Democrats are to abandon plans for a graduate tax to fund universities.

Party members are to receive an e-mail explaining the decision in a move that will be seen as preparing the ground for a hike in tuition fees.

Lord Browne's review of fees in England is expected to recommend more than doubling fees to around £7,000 a year.


The business secretary says he is still committed to a "progressive" element within the final fees package.

The Liberal Youth group immediately called on the party's MPs to reject any fee increase.

The National Union of Students (NUS) says it is an "insult to the intelligence" to try to "re-brand" an increase in fees as "progressive".

This can't be anything other than a compromise too far for many Liberal Democrats, given that student fees were one of the defining issues of the party pre-Clegg.
 
The Lib Dem mp's are in a pickle, put pressure on to split the coaltion and they stand little chance of re electicion, only way out may be to defect and I can't see an en masse movement to really matter. They ll sit tight and blame Labour.
 
It's somewhat disturbing that the officials are so ready that people just heave it onto their college debt. In the US, anyway, much of the skyrocketing costs of college the past 15 years may be due to the ease with which college loans can be gotten, then supply and demand takes over, and college inflates due to a lot more college money available. Law of unintended consequences to the "blessing" of cheaper, easier loans. See also housing bubble :(

Assuming this applies here, it is probably not a good idea to borrow still more.
 
The report seems to be recommending "Unlimited" fees:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11519642

Pricing all but the richest out of the best universities and most popular courses feels wrong to me. Unlike countries where unlimited pricing has history, parents aren't prepared for this and there isn't a long and proud history of scholarships and bursaries.

I fear that the tiny improvements in the accessibility of the best education to all will be quickly reversed
 
Ahem.

Prior to the 1989 Student Loans bill, you could receive a means-tested grant which would cover the cost of staying at university. I can't remember exactly if this was broken down into separate maintenance and tuition components, but the point was it was meritocratic: you didn't have to worry about affording to go uni if you got the grades. And, as a grant, you didn't pay anything back afterward.
 
Law of unintended consequences to the "blessing" of cheaper, easier loans.

Assuming this applies here, it is probably not a good idea to borrow still more.

Don't worry, they're also talking about making students pay "realistic" interest rates on the loans, instead of the current highly-cut rate. So that'll mean that even fewer people will feel able to afford it.
 
With some amazement, I noticed that German fees are something like £800 a year. How is this possible?
 
Ahem.

Prior to the 1989 Student Loans bill, you could receive a means-tested grant which would cover the cost of staying at university. I can't remember exactly if this was broken down into separate maintenance and tuition components, but the point was it was meritocratic: you didn't have to worry about affording to go uni if you got the grades. And, as a grant, you didn't pay anything back afterward.

My first year at university was the last year of the full grant - each year after that the grant decreased and the new loan amount increased until the grant disappreared completely. At that time your fees were completely paid by the government. A few years after that they introduced top up fees which the student also had to pay.

ETA: Scottish students at Scottish universities don't pay any fees at the moment.
 
Last edited:
This can't be anything other than a compromise too far for many Liberal Democrats, given that student fees were one of the defining issues of the party pre-Clegg.
Abolition of higher education fees is a distinctly non-liberal idea IMO (IE making all of society pay the full cost of higher education is hardly socially just) and it would be great for the Lib Dem party to be rid of it. That may mean that some MPs leave the party (or just vote against the putative act), but probably not enough to threaten the government's viability. Graduate tax was a silly plan, too-hastily concocted by someone (Cable) who should have known way better IMO.

IMO the recommendations of the Browne review shape up as combining the best bits of (socio-economically legitimate) redistribution with freeing universities to be competitive in the education they offer. It also removes reliance on the funding model that assumed that foreign students will always--and in droves--be willing to pay far more than the true cost of a degree for the honour of studying in the UK.
 
It's somewhat disturbing that the officials are so ready that people just heave it onto their college debt. In the US, anyway, much of the skyrocketing costs of college the past 15 years may be due to the ease with which college loans can be gotten, then supply and demand takes over, and college inflates due to a lot more college money available. Law of unintended consequences to the "blessing" of cheaper, easier loans. See also housing bubble :(

Assuming this applies here, it is probably not a good idea to borrow still more.
"Easy credit" can certainly be the result of a rigged market, or unlevel playing field, or some displacement from free market wonderfulness.

But less than half price tuition fees for Brits, paid for by a combination of downgrading educational quality and attempting to sting moneyed-up foreign students for the difference, is considerably more of one.

What would you recommend instead? In the 1970s, a completely free university education (apart from the studying bit) for the elite few was part of the universal-except-it-was-nothing-of-the-sort UK entitlement state. I'd be a bit surprised if you'd prefer that.
 
The report seems to be recommending "Unlimited" fees
Correct. So TopNotchingham Uni can offer degrees that cost £50,000 per year if they want to. Doesn't mean they will attract applicants, unless those applicants expect to recover the cost with future earnings. They also do not get to keep all of the increase over £6,000 but have to pay a steeply increasing fraction of it to the government. And if the uni fails to compete, its department closes. So there are market and non-market checks against HE inflation.

Pricing all but the richest out of the best universities and most popular courses feels wrong to me.
The Browne proposals don't do that though. Your statement is made on the assumption that aversion to the future liability (which is linked to future earnings) is a prohibitive deterrent to studying. There's little rational reason (except for regulatory risk) why that should be the case, even if the student never expects to be a high earner.

Unlike countries where unlimited pricing has history, parents aren't prepared for this and there isn't a long and proud history of scholarships and bursaries.
Disagreed there--this is the latest of a sequence of reforms that have passed the cost of higher education from the taxpayer to the student, starting with the scrapping of maintenance grants in the 1980s. Of course, if you are correct, then applications will slump. (They may fall--that is to be expected--as there should be at least some reduction in "frivolous" applications. Although the 2006 reforms did not reduce student demand.)

I fear that the tiny improvements in the accessibility of the best education to all will be quickly reversed
It is not just--or even primarily--about access, which in truth should be viewed as being made harder (primarily for those whose families are on higher incomes). IMO it is mostly about allowing UK universities to improve and compete. However, the number of students in higher education has tended to rise as it has got more expensive.
 
With some amazement, I noticed that German fees are something like £800 a year. How is this possible?
They are state funded. IIRC German universities do not appear in the global top 50, whereas the UK ones that do are Oxbridge, UCL, ICL, KCL, Edinburgh and maybe Bristol.

Society can certainly choose to pay for higher education from tax--but it's going to be at the expense of something else. I suspect the consensus in the UK is that graduates should meet most of the cost themselves.
 
I left university in 1999 with a £300 profit.
The lifetime "profit" according to the OECD (not actually profit, since it is without deducting the cost) is on average 50% higher earnings than stopping at secondary education--see above post. Then there are the joys of learning on top.
 
The two architects of the current student funding system were Iain Crawford and Dr. Nick Barr of the LSE; Iain was a friend of mine and we argued long and hard over the issue before his untimely demise.

Iain pointed out that when I started in university in 1986 (the last year of the full grant) something like (IIRC) 10-15% of the population went on to higher education. By the time I graduated in 1992 (architecture is a long course) this had doubled. The point he made was that the State simply couldn't afford this and there were two basic options:

1. Limit the number of places at university and look at a much more tiered system.

2. Continue to increase university-level places but come up with a system based on student self funding and possibly tuition contributions.

Iain was, I think, a supporter of (1) but recognised that this would never happen because of the political fallout. He and Nick therefore set out to develop a system which maximised the opportunities for those from the poorest backgrounds through very easy access and low interest rates.

What I'm not convinced Iain ever thought would happen would be an idiot government that threw these principles out of the window and moved on to a ££££ system of fees which would (frankly) only suit the middle and upper classes.

One point which I always made was that burdening students with debt would, over time, simply result in increased salaries in order to recoup the monies. This would, in turn, have a knock-on economic effect and we'd all end up paying for it anyway. All we've done is knock the most disadvantages right out of the ring in the process.

It's madness. And although we in Scotland are currently exempt, the simple truth is that unless we've to have "second class" universities then there will inevitably be pressure on our own national government to seek some mechanism to deliver additional student-sourced funding. The extent to which either the current SNP administration or a new (Labour) government in May can protect the very strongly held principle of free education in Scotland remains to be seen. Think of it as a reverse example of the West Lothian Question" where the crap Westminster decision does affect us.
 
[ . . . ] a system which maximised the opportunities for those from the poorest backgrounds through very easy access and low interest rates.

[ . . . ] an idiot government that threw these principles out of the window and moved on to a ££££ system of fees which would (frankly) only suit the middle and upper classes.
Maybe you've yet to read the proposals.
Browne Report said:
Students pay nothing up front. Graduates only make payments when they are earning above £21,000 per year.


If earnings drop, then payments drop. If graduates stop work for whatever reason, then payments stop as well.

Support for living costs available to all through an annual loan of £3,750. No means testing for access to loans for living costs

Additional support for students from families with an income below £60,000 per year, up to £3,250 in grants

 
I think the government is missing a trick here. Why not use the fees to motivate young people to study economically useful subjects?

E.g., those that wanted to study over-subscribed and/or economically useless subjects such as media or psychology would pay back more than those who studied under-subscribed and economically essential subjects such as physics, chemistry* or engineering.








*Obviously if such a science graduate was seduced to go into the financial sector she should be hit for the full cost of her education.:)
 
I think the government is missing a trick here. Why not use the fees to motivate young people to study economically useful subjects?

E.g., those that wanted to study over-subscribed and/or economically useless subjects such as media or psychology would pay back more than those who studied under-subscribed and economically essential subjects such as physics, chemistry* or engineering.



*Obviously if such a science graduate was seduced to go into the financial sector she should be hit for the full cost of her education.:)

I would have liked something like that. I made the mistaken assumption (all too heavily promoted, unfortunately) that having a college degree was a good thing in itself, and that it opened up opportunities regardless of the subject.

Turns out, not so much.
 
One point which I always made was that burdening students with debt would, over time, simply result in increased salaries in order to recoup the monies. This would, in turn, have a knock-on economic effect and we'd all end up paying for it anyway.
Flaky point indeed. Of course, market prices, and gains and costs, get transmitted through the system in a system where those prices aren't fixed. But that's true of anything. House prices are higher where state-maintained schools have good reputations. Earnings are higher in cities but groceries cost more too. Raising minimum wages increases inflation and prices people out of jobs. Some of these effects are noticable, some (like the last one) are sufficiently diffused that they are scarcely detectable in the data. I suspect yours would also be in that category.

Fixing prices distorts things in other ways. Sometimes that's seen as justifiable; like, if it re-renders distributional equity in a way a society prefers. In the case of state-proveded (and state-capped) funding of higher education, it mostly restricts the freedom of institutions to innovate, and simutaneously spreads the remaining costs downward through lower income percentiles.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom