• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Steven Avery: Making of a Murderer Part 2

JREF2010

Graduate Poster
JREF2010
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
1,786
This is a continuation of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302005] this thread. As is usual, the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote from the closed thread if they wish.
Posted By: Agatha





Theres supposedly a release/bond filed for Brendan.

So will the State file to keep him locked up again?

The Defense is moving forward as they should. The State has to decide to go against the 7th new ruling or drop the whole thing.

STATE is the unknown for now....the options seem to be.

Re-Trial more 16yr old confession crap & no evidence found of Brendan anywhere. Does the State want to waste more money ? probably not.

FULL 7th Re-Vote:
To have one more 7th Vote of everyone is another option for the State. Its cheaper than a retrial and more likely, imo.
Seems silly because whats the point really of having the 3-Judge thing if anyone who loses asks for the Full Vote? I suspect this request will probably be rejected too. But it is cheaper than a retrial.

DROP IT: State could toss Kratz under the bus as a loser poster boy. The new politicians can have photops with Brendan on TV and take his "popular vote" side on tv. They could spin it in their favor and use the already tainted sweatyProsecutor as the bad-egg loser whose to blame for wasting all the states money. and the politicians can then start some more Brendan Bill! geeez... very likely if the popular vote in Wisconsin is to Free Brendan.

Beg the US Supreme Court to review and overturn it back to a Guilty verdict...probably seems a big request when all the MCSD has is a video tape with no scientific evidence of Brendan a 16yr old retarded kid being asked by Weaslegart "so we'll come out and tell you...who shot her in the head?!? you can home if you tell us the right answer we want to hear""we're your friends...Im going to rub your leg with my hand and get you candy "
Highly unlikely isnt it?


This is where Factbender/Weaslegart screwed up. When TF sent the request for PoofyHair Lab gal to put Avery in the garage or trailer, he probably should have requested some last minute DNA of Brendan in there too or maybe had Lenk and Colburn find something of the victim in Brendans pant pocket.

Is it too late for Lenk and AC to go back to the trailer and find maybe something with the victims DNA and Brendans? Maybe Lenk and AC could find something of the victims in Brendans pant pocket... like they found the bullet and key on Steve placing him in the trailer and garage much much later.
Maybe they could lay another Key in the middle of the floor but this time its in Brendans trailer with Brednans DNA on a "spare key" from the SUV. Maybe find a bullet all the investigators missed the first 12 times they went through the garage? hmmm...

If Brendans released should he stay in MCSD?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JREF2010 said:
Theres supposedly a release/bond filed for Brendan.

So will the State file to keep him locked up again?

The Defense is moving forward as they should. The State has to decide to go against the 7th new ruling or drop the whole thing.

STATE is the unknown for now....the options seem to be.

Re-Trial more 16yr old confession crap & no evidence found of Brendan anywhere. Does the State want to waste more money ? probably not.

FULL 7th Re-Vote:
To have one more 7th Vote of everyone is another option for the State. Its cheaper than a retrial and more likely, imo.
Seems silly because whats the point really of having the 3-Judge thing if anyone who loses asks for the Full Vote? I suspect this request will probably be rejected too. But it is cheaper than a retrial.

DROP IT: State could toss Kratz under the bus as a loser poster boy. The new politicians can have photops with Brendan on TV and take his "popular vote" side on tv. They could spin it in their favor and use the already tainted sweatyProsecutor as the bad-egg loser whose to blame for wasting all the states money. and the politicians can then start some more Brendan Bill! geeez... very likely if the popular vote in Wisconsin is to Free Brendan.

Beg the US Supreme Court to review and overturn it back to a Guilty verdict...probably seems a big request when all the MCSD has is a video tape with no scientific evidence of Brendan a 16yr old retarded kid being asked by Weaslegart "so we'll come out and tell you...who shot her in the head?!? you can home if you tell us the right answer we want to hear""we're your friends...Im going to rub your leg with my hand and get you candy "
Highly unlikely isnt it?


This is where Factbender/Weaslegart screwed up. When TF sent the request for PoofyHair Lab gal to put Avery in the garage or trailer, he probably should have requested some last minute DNA of Brendan in there too or maybe had Lenk and Colburn find something of the victim in Brendans pant pocket.

Is it too late for Lenk and AC to go back to the trailer and find maybe something with the victims DNA and Brendans? Maybe Lenk and AC could find something of the victims in Brendans pant pocket... like they found the bullet and key on Steve placing him in the trailer and garage much much later.
Maybe they could lay another Key in the middle of the floor but this time its in Brendans trailer with Brednans DNA on a "spare key" from the SUV. Maybe find a bullet all the investigators missed the first 12 times they went through the garage? hmmm...

If Brendans released should he stay in MCSD?
Click to expand...
From my vantage point, it would bring the US Supreme Court into total disrepute to be implicated in the continued captivity of Brendan.
Nothing should surprise when form so often trumps function in justice, but that would shock me beyond belief.
 
The Reid method and false confessions are treated

A discussion of confessions and how this relates to the Dassey case, courtesy of Cornell.
 
Samson said:
From my vantage point, it would bring the US Supreme Court into total disrepute to be implicated in the continued captivity of Brendan.
Nothing should surprise when form so often trumps function in justice, but that would shock me beyond belief.
Click to expand...


I was pretty shocked when a sitting SCOTUS Justice, as part of a formal dissent, expressed the opinion that there was no Constitutional basis for preventing the execution of the actually innocent as long as the trial which declared them guilty had crossed all the "t"s and dotted all the "i"s. Later evidence be damned.

Tough to top that one.
 
quadraginta said:
I was pretty shocked when a sitting SCOTUS Justice, as part of a formal dissent, expressed the opinion that there was no Constitutional basis for preventing the execution of the actually innocent as long as the trial which declared them guilty had crossed all the "t"s and dotted all the "i"s. Later evidence be damned.

Tough to top that one.
Click to expand...
I guess some would have shed few tears when his hunting was curtailed.
 
quadraginta said:
I was pretty shocked when a sitting SCOTUS Justice, as part of a formal dissent, expressed the opinion that there was no Constitutional basis for preventing the execution of the actually innocent as long as the trial which declared them guilty had crossed all the "t"s and dotted all the "i"s. Later evidence be damned.

Tough to top that one.
Click to expand...

It is shocking. Also difficult to comprehend.
 
Illusion of Justice, by Jerry Buting

I am about halfway through Jerry Buting's book, "Illusion of Justice." I am tempted to ask, "Did Manitowoc County frame an innocent man or a guilty one?" I would recommend this book to anyone who wants to know how the criminal justice system works in practice.
 
I am tempted to ask, "Did Manitowoc County frame an innocent man or a guilty one?"
Click to expand...

Yes; that's the question on my mind, too. But after all these thousands of pages of comments and discussion, I have no answer.

I'm fairly certain Dassey is innocent. Beyond that, the waters just seem to get murkier and murkier the deeper we go.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
I am about halfway through Jerry Buting's book, "Illusion of Justice." I am tempted to ask, "Did Manitowoc County frame an innocent man or a guilty one?" I would recommend this book to anyone who wants to know how the criminal justice system works in practice.
Click to expand...


I think it is a good question, but it provokes another one. Is there any difference in our system of justice between framing an innocent man and framing a guilty one?

Both require an abandonment of the rule of law.

It is easy to allow the emotional satisfaction of believing we are seeing a guilty man punished to sway our conclusions about a trial which does just that, but it ignores the more crucial question of the effect on the fundamental legitimacy of our trial system.

I suggest that there is no ethical difference at all between the two, and that both are equally corrosive to our respect for rule of law and its importance to our society.
 
I suggest that there is no ethical difference at all between the two, and that both are equally corrosive to our respect for rule of law and its importance to our society.
Click to expand...

I think I agree. I think I'd like to see all those involved in either planting evidence or turning a blind eye when others do it prosecuted.
 
If Steve killed her he also drove from the property with her body in the back seat of her own car and returned to his trailer to phone Jodi.

Is there a different possibility? I can't divine it from the evidence in chief.

Maybe there is a way to do this without a Steven Spielberg script.
 
Last edited:
Discovery of a needle in a haystack

From pp. 243-244 of the book Illusion of Justice, by Jerry Buting comes his cross examination of Sherry Culhane. This passage covers the issue of the negative control with respect to the bullet fragment.

"Q. At no time, in this report, do you ever disclose, that in order to make that finding, you had to deviate from a protocol, did you?"
A. No"
Q, Anyone reading this report would never know..."
A. Without discovery, no.
SNIP
"Q. --ma'am, you did not disclose, in that report, that official report, that Courts, and juries, and judges, and lawyers, and everybody else relies on, that in order to make that call, you had to do something so rare you have never done it before, did you?
A. No, I did not."

Professor Paul Giannelli said with respect to the DNA evidence in the Duke lacrosse case that the defense should not have to search through a haystack to find the exculpatory needle. Yet that is what happened in the Avery case.
 
The phrase, "exculpatory needle" sounds like it means a single, hyper-probative, get-out-of-jail-free, bit of undeniable evidence which blows the whole case open, recasts all the other evidence in a new light and clears our boy.

Is that what this is? Because I'm seriously smelling some exaggeration here.
 
Exculpatory information can come in all degrees

When DNA shows up in a negative control, one repeats the work. Period. The fact that her supervisor OK'd reporting a result from this batch is meaningless. No one can be sure how she contaminated it. Why even perform the control if you are going to ignore it?

IMO because of the result from the negative control, the profile on the bullet is worth nothing, and I would hope that the jury would have discounted it accordingly. The information that the lawyers eventually turned up about the negative control is exculpatory. How exculpatory it is can be debated, but it certainly falls into that broad category.
 
Exculpatory refers to facts which show the defendant to be innocent. These are of the "he couldn't have done it because he was in Madrid" type. In other words, evidence that shows it was not possible for him to have done it (or at least strongly imply that).

A technician who makes a mistake, or even committed fraud, can only taint whatever evidence the technician handled, and that's certainly worth noting but the prosecutor can just drop the whole line of evidence. Bad evidence doesn't have to be exculpatory and in this case, I don't think it is.
 
marplots said:
The phrase, "exculpatory needle" sounds like it means a single, hyper-probative, get-out-of-jail-free, bit of undeniable evidence which blows the whole case open, recasts all the other evidence in a new light and clears our boy.

Is that what this is? Because I'm seriously smelling some exaggeration here.
Click to expand...
I am comfortable with another approach.
There is extreme controversy about a piece of vital evidence that seems damning.
The man seems to have a remarkably strong alibi, hard to break.

Therefore I will take the provisional view there is an explanation that does not involve Avery in the bullet evidence and wait for forensics that are not controversial.
In fairness, his blood in the Rav4 needs explanation. But as I said above, the narrative seems to require him to drive off with her body in the back seat (her blood in the back seat confirmed and the car was reliably seen leaving) and return somehow and make a phone call at 5pm. It does not compute.
 
exculpatory versus inculpatory evidence

Evidence which would tend to indicate the innocence of the defendant. link 1
"Any evidence that is favorable to the defendant in a criminal trial is considered exculpatory. Likewise, any evidence favorable to the prosecution is inculpatory." link2

There is nothing in these definitions which says that any one piece of exculpatory evidence must prove innocence. It is one stone on the scale, so to speak.
 
marplots said:
Exculpatory refers to facts which show the defendant to be innocent. These are of the "he couldn't have done it because he was in Madrid" type. In other words, evidence that shows it was not possible for him to have done it (or at least strongly imply that).
Click to expand...


I don't believe this is a reasonable explanation of "exculpatory" as it is applied in a court of law.

This is;

exculpatoryadj. applied to evidence which may justify or excuse an accused defendant's actions, and which will tend to show the defendant is not guilty or has no criminal intent.
Click to expand...

A technician who makes a mistake, or even committed fraud, can only taint whatever evidence the technician handled, and that's certainly worth noting but the prosecutor can just drop the whole line of evidence. Bad evidence doesn't have to be exculpatory and in this case, I don't think it is.
Click to expand...


That would be best left up to a jury.

Apparently the DA felt a need to try and conceal the fact, while still trying to present the results as untainted evidence. That should tell you something about his opinion of how a jury would react.
 
Samson said:
...In fairness, his blood in the Rav4 needs explanation. But as I said above, the narrative seems to require him to drive off with her body in the back seat (her blood in the back seat confirmed and the car was reliably seen leaving) and return somehow and make a phone call at 5pm. It does not compute...
Click to expand...

And? You mean by using his legs and walking back to the house? How far away was the Rav4 parked? Didn't he use a cell phone? Where are the cell towers? And how accurately can they determine where he was?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom