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Stephen Turoff - psychic surgeon

DeVega

Critical Thinker
D
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
342
Hey guys - just wanted your opinions/feedback on this dilemma.

I am a Breast Cancer survivor and I am part of an online community of dammed fine, amazing women. We've seen each other through tough times - one of our members even travelled over from the states this year to visit.

Anyhoo, as you've probably guessed, one of our newer members has recently become entangled with this Stephen Turoff guy. I will see if I can find and copy her post (names omitted) to recount her experience. I found it to be alarming - it seemed to me that she and her friends were hypnotised - even possibly drugged. I didn't realise that they 'use' surgical implements - a scalpel and clamps! I'm certain their is a lot of slieght of hand involved but I cannot imagine that anyone would let some guy near them in an unsterile environment, unanethsetised, brandishing a scalpel!

It seems to me to be abusive. I know they were consenting - but people in her position are the most desperate and vulnerable. I am NOT judging them - I HAVE walked in their shoes. They were left with bruising and scars so he must scratch and pull at them... In the caes of cancer, you are not even supposed to have deep massage as the lymphatic system could spread the cancer under such stimulation. The idiot could actually be causing damage. Ohhh, it makes my blood boil! Worst of all, she said it was an amazing experience & she will go back! :(

I guess I'm left wondering: A/ Do you think it's likely that in the weeks to come, these women could suffer post-traumatic stress?

B/ Can this truely be LEGAL? Do you think Trading Standards could shut this scum down?

Yours worriedly
DeVega
 
A) If they have felt the experience was 'Amazing' then they are unlikely to have post-traumatic stress syndrome. Even if they change their minds about the experience and feel cheated and defrauded it's a fair way to go from there to the kind of horrific situations that cause PTSS.

B) If there is a risk that he could be causing serious harm then I would have thought he could be prosecutable. He appears (whether he claims it or not) to be attempting to practice medecine without a license. Also, I would have thought any damage done as a direct result of his treatment could be seen as Assault, Grevious Bodily Harm etc.

We'd need more information but any illicit drugging is certainly illegal.
Hypnosis is not such a worry because (unlike popular perception of it) it is mainly about relaxing the patient, not making them do things they don't want to against their will, which is pretty much impossible.
 
DeVega said:
Hey guys - just wanted your opinions/feedback on this dilemma.

I am a Breast Cancer survivor and I am part of an online community of dammed fine, amazing women. We've seen each other through tough times - one of our members even travelled over from the states this year to visit.

Anyhoo, as you've probably guessed, one of our newer members has recently become entangled with this Stephen Turoff guy. I will see if I can find and copy her post (names omitted) to recount her experience. I found it to be alarming - it seemed to me that she and her friends were hypnotised - even possibly drugged. I didn't realise that they 'use' surgical implements - a scalpel and clamps! I'm certain their is a lot of slieght of hand involved but I cannot imagine that anyone would let some guy near them in an unsterile environment, unanethsetised, brandishing a scalpel!

It seems to me to be abusive. I know they were consenting - but people in her position are the most desperate and vulnerable. I am NOT judging them - I HAVE walked in their shoes. They were left with bruising and scars so he must scratch and pull at them... In the caes of cancer, you are not even supposed to have deep massage as the lymphatic system could spread the cancer under such stimulation. The idiot could actually be causing damage. Ohhh, it makes my blood boil! Worst of all, she said it was an amazing experience & she will go back! :(

I guess I'm left wondering: A/ Do you think it's likely that in the weeks to come, these women could suffer post-traumatic stress?

B/ Can this truely be LEGAL? Do you think Trading Standards could shut this scum down?

Yours worriedly
DeVega
Click to expand...

Sounds awful:(

Do you have a link that we can see what claims are being made? I'd imagine any medically non-qualified person would be guilty of assault and battery in criminal law if they use physically invasive treatments.

How low can these charlatans stoop?:(
 
Sounds like the worst sort of scum to me.

From: http://www.funny.co.uk/comedy/prod_...eon-The-Story-of-an-Extraordinary-Healer.html

" I visited Turoff at his practice in Danbury on various occasions with my husband. Despite all our visits my husband died of his disease. I now know of four people who suffered from various cancers, who all attended Turoff and THEY ALL DIED quite soon afterwards! I did ask the Turoffs if we could meet with someone who had been successfully treated, but they assured me they did not keep the relevant records to permit this.

At the time we visited, Mr Turoff was channelling the spirit of a dead mid 19th century individual named Dr. Joseph Kahn. I have never found any records to substantiate the existence of this individual. More recently, Mr Turoff is a disciple of Sai Baba, an Indian guru. The evolution of Turoff's spirituality is quite fascinating to observe.

When I attended with my husband, I saw Turoff pinch a fold of abdominal skin and appear to make an incision. Then he appeared to put his fingers inside the abdomen - however, I could not swear that he did anything other than fold the skin and curl his fingers under, out of sight. There was no sign of an incision on my husband. The sad and awful part was that my husband believed himself to be cured. He refused to take his painkillers and suffered agonisingly until he began to take them again. As we had a number of visits, this cycle of belief of cure and refusal of painkillers continued for some time. The psychological and emotional damage that this inflicted on my husband as he struggled to come to terms with his disease progression was devastating. "

and:

"BTW, the charges made by Mr Turoff were £16 per person when we attended some years ago. He now finds it necessary to chage about £25 per patient. Mr Turoff's admits to seeing about 50 people a day at least 4 days a week"
 
Some more links about Turoff. Worth reading for the MO. "Psychic ash" manifestations, and reinforcement by apparently throwing something into a bin with a sound. Sounds like standard stage magic misdirection to me. And it appears that Mr Turoff charges a lot more than 25 U.K. pounds when it suits him...

http://skepdic.com/comments/psurgcom.html

http://www.xs4all.nl/~douven/inner.journey/turoff_uk.htm

http://beyondbelief.fcpages.com/StephenTuroff.htm

And here is an interesting link connecting Turoff to Harry Oldfield - who just happens to be a close associate of our old friend, alleged "scientist", Roger Coghill

http://www.electrocrystal.com/background.html
 
I think it would be interesting to try to get this guy prosecuted for practicing medicine without a liscense. He would either have to defend what he does and potentially go to jail, or admit what he's doing is fraud and potentially go to jail.

Either scenario would work for me
 
Thanks for the extra info guys -

I am so incensed by this I am going to print everything out and submit it to trading standards - surely there must be some law against this?

BTW I did copy my friend's account which was on the BC board but I am hesitant to post it here. It feels as if I would be betraying her trust (something she is already suffering from other quarters) so I am going to check with her that she won't mind othes seeing her account. Hope this makes sense.

I'll keep you all posted. Any other info on Mr Turoff would be welcome.

DeVega
 
Re: Thanks for the extra info guys -

DeVega said:
I am so incensed by this I am going to print everything out and submit it to trading standards - surely there must be some law against this?

BTW I did copy my friend's account which was on the BC board but I am hesitant to post it here. It feels as if I would be betraying her trust (something she is already suffering from other quarters) so I am going to check with her that she won't mind othes seeing her account. Hope this makes sense.

I'll keep you all posted. Any other info on Mr Turoff would be welcome.

DeVega
Click to expand...

DeVega, I hope you can take this further since you have at least second hand knowledge. Trouble is, it's a double-edged sword. You don't want to get stressed out in your situation.

I'm a middle-aged bloke, and lost both my mother and sister to cancer, and the very thought of this scumbag taking advantage like this actually made me cry. There is no self-deception here because HE MUST KNOW he is a fraud.

Have you ever seen the video where Randi shows how the psychic surgeons do their trickery? It can LOOK very convincing, but it's all a sham.

What if this nutcase is "operating" on kids who die when they could be saved by real medicine? The whole thing is totally sick.

There must be something we can do about this, folks. Coghill is a conman, sure, but this Turoff could be classed as a murderer in some ways. I knew this stuff went on in the Philippines, but I can hardly believe it is happening in the UK.
 
This reminds me of when I was working at a holistic healing centre.

The owner wanted me to find out the numbers for AIDS charities and hospitals in the area. They felt that the AIDS sufferers could benefit from some of the treatments we were offering. Even at the time I didn't believe they could, but I didn't think it would hurt and I thought at least it was nice they were trying to help them for free.
The owner concluded with "Tell them they can have a ten percent discount".
What! They were still charging them?
Then to some other people in the room they said "Come on people, profits aren't very good at the moment, who's got any other ideas?"
Yes, that's right. The fact that they were AIDS sufferers was just a useful tool in an agressive marketing campaign.

I left shortly after as I was already pretty disgusted with the place.


I think we should try to do something about this Steven Turoff. Any suggestions anyone.
 
At the end of Man on the Moon, Andy Kaufman goes to get healed by one of these types and it shows him noticing how it's a fraud.

Not sure if that's exactly a flick British women will care for though. Are there any others that demonstrate this 'trick'?
 
Stephen Turoff,

- mentioned in James Randi: Psychic Investigator, London: Boxtree Ltd, 1991 (pages 74 to 77)

- seen on BBC1's 'UK's Worst ... Quacks' in July 2003.

Clip 1 of 2 (.mpg, 3mins, 34Mb).

If someone can host this first clip, I'll post clip 2 asap. Otherwise, you'll have to wait 'til tomorrow night.
 
I had an interesting thought about this. The most difficult problem when going after "borderline" frauds is finding some simple and unequivocal legal ground under which they can be charged. O.K. it's fraud, but the authorities don't want to be bothered with frauds of this kind - unless there is some absolutely undeniable proof that people are being intentionally defrauded and the perp knows that its fraud. Sometimes it can be difficult to show that it is definite, intentional fraud. Practicing without a license is a possibility but as far as I can tell from web searches there is no requirement in the UK for someone to be licensed to practice medicine, unlike the US. So what could he be nailed on?

Then it hit me. According to the accounts I linked to, he uses scalpels and forceps in his "operations". And it is absolutely compulsory that instruments should be properly sterilized before operations etc., because of the risk of the spread of AIDS etc. So how about a complaint based on failure to maintain proper hygiene during operations and failure to take adequate precautions to sterilize instruments, maintain a sterile environment etc?

No, I haven't lost it! :) Think about it. What defence can he have to this? The only possible way out is to explain that he doesn't actually insert the instruments into the body of a patient and therefore sterile procedures are unneccessary. But to do that would be to admit intentional fraud wouldn't it?

Gotcha! :D

In addition, there are other possibilities. Since he claims to remove infected "body parts" from patients, then there is an issue of safe disposal. Is he complying with directives for the proper handling and disposal of contaminated medical waste? I would imagine his local authority would be very concerned to hear that he might be dumping contaminated medical waste in an improper fashion. And then there is the "blood". One account I linked to mentioned that a "patient" was covered with flecks of "blood" after an "operation". O.K. that blood may be infected with HIV mightn't it? Sounds like grounds for concern to me. With a little creativity I think there are quite a few grounds for a real killer complaint.
 
DeVega: After some investigation I read what I think is the account you were referring to. I will not reveal it here either. But I can see why you were shocked, I thought it was really quite horrific.

I can fully understand D's reasons why she went - when you're in a desperate situation most people will try anything. What I don't agree with is her idea that it's harmless. I was particularly worried about her account of L's experience. She actually suffered major bruising and her skin was cut. During this "procedure" this cut was exposed to Turoff's hands (and there is no mention of him washing them at all), the scalpel and forceps and any other tools used, and also the cloth. I presume he used the same stuff on all three people. I see no reason not to assume that he used the same stuff on all the people who visited that day. Or maybe he never washes any of it at all!

Now, what if one of his previous "patients" had HIV? L could have been infected with HIV just from the skin cut alone in contact with the scalpel or other bits. There was real blood on that scalpel. Similarly if L had HIV, it could be passed to the next victim he cuts. And not just HIV either, there is hepatitis, tetanus and goodness knows what else. Maybe there is even some possibility of passing on cancerous cells to other people. Since the people who are being "treated" are genuinely sick there is a high probability of transmitted infection - how many AIDS patients does he "treat" for example? This is definitely illegal.

You may want to mention this to D. It's important. D wants to survive for her children's sake. I am sure I am not alone in wishing her all the best and I sincerely hope she recovers. But what if she gets HIV from this idiot without knowing it and then passes it to her children? It's quite possible. All it takes is an infected cut to pass it to her, and then her passing some contamination to her children if they get a cut. Not to mention the risk of passing it to her husband sexually.

Please tell her, she is not doing something harmless. She is taking a risk with her own life and with the lives of her family. The same goes for L and anyone else involved. In fact, I would strongly recommend that L sees her MD, tells him everything that happened and gets a blood test for HIV/hepatitis as soon as possible.

D thought that Turoff could not be a fraud because he only asked her to return and not L and the other lady. However, L and the other lady intend to return because they think the same! Think about the logic of it. Turoff didn't need to ask them to return because he knew they all would anyway - and by not asking them he convinced them that they should! It's reverse psychology, it's something that con artists are experts in.

In any event, this is not a harmless bit of fun. Other people will be convinced to go by D's account, and all of them and their friends and families will be put at risk of serious infection. And we don't know how many people have already died because of things like this. Hopefully none, but I'm sure we'll never know. Please try to make them understand this.

Finally, I noticed the bit about Turoff groping her breast. I get the impression he may have touched L even more intimately than that. Has anybody considered this could be an excellent way for a pervert to get a few cheap thrills? Even better still, the victim gets to pay for the privilege! This whole thing sounds to me like abuse - in many more ways than one.
 
JimTheBrit said:
Stephen Turoff,

- mentioned in James Randi: Psychic Investigator, London: Boxtree Ltd, 1991 (pages 74 to 77)

- seen on BBC1's 'UK's Worst ... Quacks' in July 2003.

Clip 1 of 2 (.mpg, 3mins, 34Mb).

If someone can host this first clip, I'll post clip 2 asap. Otherwise, you'll have to wait 'til tomorrow night.
Click to expand...

Clip one of two :-)
 
I wouold have thought that assault is the easiest charge to lay, but you need a complainant.


It would be worth contacting the General Medical Council to ask about the process of investigating someone practising medicine without a licence, but the area is difficult because people can consent to all sorts of unpleasant things on their own behalf, by contrast and to make the point, if any of this was done to an animal then it would be outright illegal because surgical acts are well-defined and illegal for unqualified people whereas you, as an adult, can consent to another adult doing unpleasant things to you. You can enter a boxing ring and have someone hit you, but if you entered that ring and started kicking a dog for sport the law would have a different view. However, there are limits and there was a famous case of homosexual S&M hobbyists being prosecuted for assault when the pastime involved nailing each others scrotums to bits of wood (as I recall). They were found guilty even though they had the enthusiastic consent of the victim. I can't remember whether that held on appeal.

When it comes to fraud, simply contacting Trading Standards is the route to go down, but I'm not sure whether they are very keen to spend resources on difficult cases. I phoned one summer to make some enquiries about making a complaint and found an answerphone telling me that due to holiday and staff sickness there was no one in th eoffice for a week or two!
 
Oh god, that is truely frightening!

I just don't understand how this man is still operating if he has been the subject of such investigations before. I'm guessing he must be operating only just inside the letter of the law.

Pragmatist - I think you make a very good point with regard to the saftey of the surgical implements - especially as he is definately breaking the skin on some people in order to convince them they have a 'scar.' HIV and Hep etc are definite possibilities...

However, my gut instinct is, that only if the persons he 'operates' on makes a complaint will they proceed. The health & safety aspect is perhaps the way to go - but again, second hand, anecdotal evidence might not suffice... and I sure aint going near him!

D'you think Randi might be in a position to advise? He is likely to have more clout! (That's a good thing btw for all you non-brits!;) )

DeVega
 
Please excuse my rubbish spelling on the previous post!

Have been typing for hours - must take a break before the wee flashy lights come and get me! (Erm... that's a migraine - not aliens or angels!!!)

DeVega
 
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