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Statistics about Jesus fulfilling prophecy

TheAnachronism

Critical Thinker
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
439
I was discussing religion with a Christian friend and coworker yesterday, and he brought up Jesus. This is usually problematic for me, because while I may be able to argue against the existence of God, I have little knowledge about the New Testament and the life of Jesus of Nazareth, and I told him that.

One thing he mentioned, however, was about a statistic he read which showed the extremely low probability of anyone fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, which he felt lent credence to the fact that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

My friend is a very intelligent person, and reasonably rational and logical. He seems to feel that the evidence surrounding Jesus' life and death are plentiful and adequately convincing. Not having any knowledge in this area, I simply can't respond to that side of his argument.

I was wondering if anyone here could help me understand the argument about the low probability of someone fulfilling the prophecies of the Old Testament. I have a feeling that the evidence that Jesus even fulfilled these prophecies is not as plentiful or convincing as my friend suggests, given that skeptics do exist in this area, and atheists and agnostics are plentiful.

Any help would be appreciated.
 
Ask him what evidence he has that Jesus even existed and what evidence he has that he did fulfill those prophecies (vs. the entire story being fabricated with exactly that aim in mind.)
 
Matthew's gospel was written TO and FOR Jews, so it has a lot of "in fulfillment of the prophecy" stuff -- ask why the same things aren't in the other gospels, especially when the others conflict with Matthew's version. Luke included some stories like that, too, but mostly because (apparently) it made for a good story.
 
The gospel writers, and Jesus himself, were very well aware of the prophesies. Fudging the stories to match up with them was a trivial task.

The gospels even admit that Jesus did specific things "in fulfilment of prophesy", that is, he did them specifically because he knew of the prophesy. If I know the prophesy says the messiah will drive a red Ford, and I want to be considered the messiah... obviously I'm going to buy a red Ford. Hardly proves anything though.
 
Hmm...book that says Jesus was the messiah also says that he fulfulled all the profecies to be considered messiah.

No, that's rock solid, the OP is going to have to convert.
 
The gospel writers, and Jesus himself, were very well aware of the prophesies. Fudging the stories to match up with them was a trivial task.

The gospels even admit that Jesus did specific things "in fulfilment of prophesy", that is, he did them specifically because he knew of the prophesy. If I know the prophesy says the messiah will drive a red Ford, and I want to be considered the messiah... obviously I'm going to buy a red Ford. Hardly proves anything though.

Along this line, you have to keep in mind that the current version of the Bible was peiced together out of many, many different documents. The RCC pulled together a council that went through and decided which bits to keep in and which to reject. Those that represented a fulfillment of scriptures were obviously more likely to make the cut than anything which lowered Jesus' batting average. Also, elements which suggested that Jesus wasn't divine went on the editing room floor, while those authors who supported Jesus as the Son of God went into the final theatrical release.

This doesn't prove that there was or wasn't a Jesus, and it doesn't prove that he was or wasn't the Messiah. But it's clear that if you're writing the book and you get to hedge your bets, then as a source for anything statistical, all bets are off.
 
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The best single example to use to demonstrate what the posters are talking about is the bit about riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. This is lifted directly from Zechariah (I don't have access to the exact passage at the moment, but can look it up later). In it, the prophet states that the messiah will be riding "an ass, and a colt, the foal of an ass". Most of the Gospel riders correctly interpreted this to mean a single, young, male donkey, the repetition simply being a poetic device.

Matthew, however, reads the original prophecy literally and invents rodeo Jesus where he is supposedly riding both animals (although I doubt at the same time). Seeing this type of discrepency highlights how the Gospel writers deliberately included prophecy into their accounts, even though it might not have matched reality very well (being written decades after the original events).
 
In a vast ocean filled with whales, what are the odds that Ahab would find Moby Dick?

Only the true king of England could pull the sword from the stone, therefore Arthur must be the true king.
 
Shoot, most aren't even prophecies about the stupid messiah. They are statements chosen from the OT because they seem to apply to Jesus (even when they don't).

For example, consider the old standard, "Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel." that is claimed to apply to Jesus. Aside from the fact that the original OT text doesn't actually say "virgin," where in the NT was Jesus ever called "Immanuel"?

But that's not the end of it. This is a very selective quote. There is more to the prophesy in Isaiah:

"15 "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.

16"For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken."

Hmmm, that's interesting. If this passage refers to Jesus, then it suggests there was a time that he did not know enough to refuse evil and choose good. Seriously? Pretty strange for a messiah, don't you think? And is there really any indication that Jesus at curds and honey?

And the land of the "two kings you dread"? That is, I think, Aram and Israel (Is 7:1). Were they "foresaken" before the boy was able to chose good?
 
I am not sure of the relevance of the pedictions are in the first place. If you believe Jesus died and rose up again three days later.......What are the prophecies about donkeys and such going to add to that. By any standard it is not a party trick you see very often, even from people who dont put Messiah on their tax returns.
 
Hmmm, that's interesting. If this passage refers to Jesus, then it suggests there was a time that he did not know enough to refuse evil and choose good. Seriously? Pretty strange for a messiah, don't you think?

Maybe it's referring to when the Messiah was a child. Remember, the Jewish conception of the Messiah is all human, not a god-man.

And is there really any indication that Jesus at curds and honey?

Well, Canaan was the land of milk and honey, and curds are made from milk. I wonder if it's a poetic device for describing children of a certain age based on what they eat. That's just a guess though.
 
The gospel writers, and Jesus himself, were very well aware of the prophesies. Fudging the stories to match up with them was a trivial task.

The gospels even admit that Jesus did specific things "in fulfilment of prophesy", that is, he did them specifically because he knew of the prophesy. If I know the prophesy says the messiah will drive a red Ford, and I want to be considered the messiah... obviously I'm going to buy a red Ford. Hardly proves anything though.

I got to keep my eyes open
So I can see my lord
I'm gonna watch the horizon
For a brand new ford

Tom Waits
 
Thanks for the responses! I'm going to have to run these by my friend to get his opinion. As might be expected of a Xian, it seems that he doesn't need a large amount historical and verifiable evidence to convince him of biblical happenings in which he already believes, so I'm not sure how far I can get along this line of arguing.

Hmm...book that says Jesus was the messiah also says that he fulfulled all the profecies to be considered messiah.

No, that's rock solid, the OP is going to have to convert.

As I said, I don't know much about the Bible in detail, but I have inferred over time from discussions upon the subject that the Old Testament was written well before the birth of Jesus, the alleged Messiah, and contains "prophecies" about the Messiah. It is apparently your belief, as well as mine, that the Bible is simply not factual. This, however, is not my dilemma. I was simply wondering what evidence there is for or against the assertion that Jesus did indeed fulfill prophecy about the Messiah.
 
As I said, I don't know much about the Bible in detail, but I have inferred over time from discussions upon the subject that the Old Testament was written well before the birth of Jesus, the alleged Messiah, and contains "prophecies" about the Messiah. It is apparently your belief, as well as mine, that the Bible is simply not factual. This, however, is not my dilemma. I was simply wondering what evidence there is for or against the assertion that Jesus did indeed fulfill prophecy about the Messiah.


There are many OT prophecies about a Messiah, however when you actually read through them, they almost never sound like the stereotypical Jesus-type. Most of them are warlords coming to lead Israel (or at least one of the two kingdoms) into glorious battle. Others make the Messiah sound a bit like the Furies, scourging people for their failures in charity. None of them are the peaceful type you most commonly see in the New Testament. Zecariah is probably the easiest read of the OT prophets, and is the source for several common NT details (riding into Jerusalem and the 30 pieces of silver). If you tackle Ezekiel, have some booze or other type of painkiller on hand as it is a fairly bumpy ride.
 
How many of those prophecies were fulfilled in such a way that the person who wrote it down could not possibly have been there to witness it?
 
Thanks for the responses! I'm going to have to run these by my friend to get his opinion. As might be expected of a Xian, it seems that he doesn't need a large amount historical and verifiable evidence to convince him of biblical happenings in which he already believes, so I'm not sure how far I can get along this line of arguing.



As I said, I don't know much about the Bible in detail, but I have inferred over time from discussions upon the subject that the Old Testament was written well before the birth of Jesus, the alleged Messiah, and contains "prophecies" about the Messiah. It is apparently your belief, as well as mine, that the Bible is simply not factual. This, however, is not my dilemma. I was simply wondering what evidence there is for or against the assertion that Jesus did indeed fulfill prophecy about the Messiah.

Well in Mattew Chapter 24 is everything Jesus said about the end of time and his return.
Signs of the End of the Age
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And how is it so many can deny the truth of scripture? I believe it is absolute truth and we can take God at his word. It is still my understanding that no one has ever disproven the truth of scripture even though many try to argue about it constantly.
 
I am not sure of the relevance of the pedictions are in the first place. If you believe Jesus died and rose up again three days later.......What are the prophecies about donkeys and such going to add to that. By any standard it is not a party trick you see very often, even from people who dont put Messiah on their tax returns.

Nominated.
 
The Day and Hour Unknown
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.


kurious_kathy,

I have two questions:

1. If the father, son and holy spirit are one god, how can the father be aware of something and the son not? One god, remember?

2. If Jesus did not know the day or hour, how could he tell his disciples: "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28)?
 

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