Spain: Church and State

[Mycroft]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...in25.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/25/ixworld.html

The Spanish government sparked a furious row yesterday after it emerged that it had drawn up a timetable to halve state funding of the Roman Catholic Church and to ban crucifixes from public buildings.

The Socialist government has already pedged to confront the Church ideologically and fiscally and to transform Spain into a fully secular society by scrapping the Church's "privileged position in society".

As a citizen of the United States, the idea of state funding of a church just seems bizarre. Still, I can see that Spain is moving towards a separation of Church and State, and that seems positive.

But almost at the end of this article, I see:

Further enraging conservatives, the government has drawn up plans to finance the teaching of Islam in state-run schools and to give funds to mosques on the grounds that it will create greater understanding of the country's one million Muslims.

Well, I can see how that would enrage conservatives, it should enrage liberals too. Does Spain want to transform itself into a secular society or not?

 

[UserGoogol]

I suppose the theory is that if you're gonna give money to churches you might as well try to give money to as many churches as possible, because then at least you're discriminating against less people. It still sucks, but gradual reform often means having a few crappy compromises.

 

[Peskanov]

The socialist party, PSOE, is trying to create an image of "tolerance" and "peace" for themselves, almost at hippie levels. They started governing a few months ago, so they still have to show their real intentions and politics.
The reality here is quite similar to the rest of Europe: people is abandoning religion very fast. Secularity is a fact here, and the bond church-state is only a remaining of Franco's era.
Even the right party, PP, is trying to leave christianism as an ideological base. A few days ago some members proposed substituting "christianism" by "occidental thinking" in his ideology texts.
The proposal has been rejected, but anyway it seems christianism is losing weight in Spain's right.
About Islam: in the last years we have received a million of inmigrants. This is probably due to the decadence on population grow, and it seems Spain's economy needed that inmigration badly.
Most of those inmigrants come from Africa, Asia, and some ex-CCCP republics with Islamic influence. Both parties, PP and PSOE make big efforts to display religious tolerance and favour more inmigration, despite their own real feelings about religion.

 

[BPSCG]

Further enraging conservatives, the government has drawn up plans to finance the teaching of Islam in state-run schools and to give funds to mosques on the grounds that it will create greater understanding of the country's one million Muslims.

You missed the last part of the article:

Among other spending measures, the government has drawn up plans to reduce Spain's ever-growing feral cat problem by choking them to death with vast quantities of cream.

 

[Mycroft]

Among other spending measures, the government has drawn up plans to reduce Spain's ever-growing feral cat problem by choking them to death with vast quantities of cream.

If I've never shown my appreciation for your sense of humor before, let me do so now. I think I'll be chuckling for days over that one.

 

[CapelDodger]

from Mycroft:

As a citizen of the United States, the idea of state funding of a church just seems bizarre.

Having a fascist government into the 70's must seem pretty bizarre as well. Only so many dragons can be taken on at one time. The Catholic Church and Spanish Fascism are entwined like that. It's good to see that the Spanish are not declaring all the dragons slain. Democracy is assured; time to seriously take on the priests. Either going against the global trend, or getting in early on a new one.

 

[BPSCG]

If I've never shown my appreciation for your sense of humor before, let me do so now. I think I'll be chuckling for days over that one.

Thanks. I might add that you hold up your end very nicely, too.

Now, back to the good fight.

 

[epepke]

As a citizen of the United States, the idea of state funding of a church just seems bizarre. Still, I can see that Spain is moving towards a separation of Church and State, and that seems positive.

It's fairly common in Europe. Germany has a church tax. The Church of England is, well, the Church of England.

 

[wollery]

Re: Re: Spain: Church and State

It's fairly common in Europe. Germany has a church tax. The Church of England is, well, the Church of England.

Except that the Church of England recieves no money from the government!

 

[Mike B.]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...in25.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/25/ixworld.html



As a citizen of the United States, the idea of state funding of a church just seems bizarre. Still, I can see that Spain is moving towards a separation of Church and State, and that seems positive.

But almost at the end of this article, I see:



Well, I can see how that would enrage conservatives, it should enrage liberals too. Does Spain want to transform itself into a secular society or not?

Well I applaud Spain distancing itself from the RCC.

However, I am baffled at then turning around and giving money to Mosques.

How would giving money to Mosques promote "tolerance," etc.?

Do the people who are most anti-Muslim show up at Mosques regularly?

Seems a bit hippy-dippy to me.

 

[Fas]

Money to mosques...

Nice to see Spain is retarded as ever.

 

[daenku32]

Money to mosques...

Nice to see Spain is retarded as ever.

Maybe in part of understanding Islam they wanted to establish a baseline of the amount of people in spain who think all mosques are terrorists recruitment centers.

Nothing like giving a donation to a muslim center to bring out people's opinions of Islam.

 

[epepke]

Re: Re: Re: Spain: Church and State

Except that the Church of England recieves no money from the government!

Really?

When this happened, did they have to buy their property?

 

[Morwen]

It won't work. It never has. And especially not like this.

After Franco's death, there was this beautiful document. It was an agreement (the "Concordatos") with the RCC. It laid out a plan in (I think) fifteen years during which the money the Church would get from the State would be progressively less and less, until Spain would become a true secular country. I think that the State would collaborate with the Church in maintaining artistic patrimony (cathedrals, art and such), and some social works, but the rest would go out. The RCC signed the agreement.

Of course, it never happened, no matter what ideology the governing party was. The RCC still receives a significant amount of money from our taxes; there is a "Religion" (read "RCC doctrine") subject in our public schools, for which the teachers are all appointed by the RCC (not by the State); bishops and cardinals regularly interfere in the managing of public affairs as if their saying should have to carry a weight in government decisions...

Well, you get the idea.

The RCC has been, and still is, extremely important for Spanish history and culture. It has shaped the country. However, things change, and all the feeble attempts to keep the Church where it belongs (i.e., in the private lives of citizens who want it there, and as a cultural background and referent, not running public affairs), have met with failure.

The idea of funding mosques is... well... foolish. And it will backlash, because, since it is foolish, it will not prosper, and it will make even more difficult to pass another measure to stop the RCC from eating where it shouldn't. So, we still will have the RCC, we won't have a true secular society, and mosques will have to manage on their own (not that I care much), while the RCC will still be backed by the Government (about this I care).

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Regarding Church and State, there are several approaches, not just yes/no.

Theocracy: The Church is the State. Example: Iran.

Established Church, but the Church is not the State. Examples: UK, Israel.

Separation: There is no established Church. Examples: USA, France.

The president being a believer does not make the USA a theocracy, even if he does say "God bless America" in his speeches.

And some of his positions on certain issues are "Christian", and I don't like it. That isn't the same as a theocracy.

His opponent and his predecessor have preached sermons from Christian pulpits, and he has not. So what?

Religion is real big in the USA and not in Europe.

That is because the Church isn't the State in the USA!

The EU ideology is that the State is the Church. No. The State is God in the EU.

Spain? Teaching Islam but not Catholicism in the schools?

That's Spanish for "Please don't kill us".

It won't work.

 

[Peskanov]

Spain? Teaching Islam but not Catholicism in the schools?

That's Spanish for "Please don't kill us".

You have a very distorted vision of Europe and Spain.
Spain is that country nearly touching Africa in the north, you know? We have very strong ties with all the Islamic countries, and a lot of inmigration from those countries.
We are abandoning christianism, so we don't really care about inmigrant's beliefs; for example we are also very tolerant with the protestant sects that come here with the south america people.
In other words: we don't give a **** about religion, only the old (>70 years) people does.
About terrorism: polls show that Spaniards expect more attacks from the Islamic extremists in the near future, no matter the politics of the country (these polls are very recent).
About the old Iraq question: Spaniards don't support vendetta attacks against arabic countries or against Islam. Never did. The anti-Islam position is only supported by Polish right now, as far as I now.
Bad luck

 

[ZeeGerman]

You have a very distorted vision of Europe and Spain.

As if that were a reason not to post grotesque statements about Europe. Abdul Alhazred might not be an Arab, but he's certainly mad

Zee

[edited]
BTW
Is that "if that WERE a reason" or "if that WAS a reason" ? Darn if clauses...