Sorry, but we ARE at war with Islam.

Skeptic

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It is perfectly true, of course, that most Muslims are not like the Islamists. The problem is that while this premise is true, it simply does not follow that Islam is not a threat to Europe (and the world), or that Islam is not backward and barbaric, or that the west is not at war with it.

You see, the fact that only a minority is extremist was trivially true for EVERY SINGLE AGRESSIVE NATION OR VIOLENT POLITICAL MOVEMENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. But it simply doesn't matter: what matters is what the goal of the NATION OR MOVEMENT is, not the goal of every particular individual in it.

Consider, by analogy, Nazi Germany. Were most Germans fanatical Nazis? We most Nazis openly in favor of the holocaust? No. Most Germans supported Hitler for emotional or other reasons having little to do with the jews; even most Nazis didn't think he really "meant it" when he talked about their extermination. People joined the Nazi party for reasons as prosaic as getting a better job, without the slightest thought of what Hitler had in mind.

Does this mean that the Nazis and Germans--as a body--didn't commit the holocaust? Does this mean that in 1942 the USA was not in war with Nazi Germany because not all Nazi Germans hated it and many were opposed to Hitler's declaration of war against it? Of course not. Why? Because what matters is that the holocaust and WWII were the goal of those who who led, educated, financed, politically motivated, etc., Germany and Nazism at the time.

Same here. The goal of Islam--the "green", political, Sunni Islam, in particular--is a worldwide Muslim Chalifate. The Muslims regimes in the world openly say so, and educated their people for it. In particular, the goal includes the destruction of israel (sorry, the "zionist entity" in "occupied Palestine") and the taking over and establishment of Sharia law in Europe, in stages.

That this is the goal of ISLAM, of the Islamic governments and religious leaders, does not mean that this is the goal of every single Muslim. It does not mean it is the goal of MOST Muslims, either. But that is as irrelevant as saying that it wasn't the goal of all Germans to kill the jews. It IS the goal of those who lead, educate, finance, and propagandize for Islam; it is supporters of this goal that their people and troops take orders from.

What, then, WOULD matter? What can Muslims do to change this? Again, let's use Nazi Germany. The Nazi resistance to Hitler mattered not because they merely disliked Hitler--many Germans did--but because they acted to take POLITICAL control of Germany from the Nazis. Had they succeeded, then war with Germany and the holocaust would have surely quickly stopped, since the new leaders and educators and fianciers of Germany would have stopped both.

Similar movements DO exist in the Muslim world, and are a reason for hope. I could name, offhand, at least half a dozen political leaders of this anti-radical-Islam movement. But let us not kid outselves: they are NOT represnetative of the Islamic world's politics and power. They are much closer to what the German resistance was. Unless they win (and it seems unlikely, unfortunately, that they will) then Islam will continue to be a threat and will continue to try and take over the west (and massacre the jews in the bargain), because this is what political Islam wants.

In the meantime, we face a choice: either realize the danger and do somethign about it, or not.

I agree that it is difficult to decide what to do: it is hard to encourage the moderate political movements while fighting radical Islam. I am offering no magic solution; indeed, the allies faced a similar problem when dealing with the German resistance--do they give assurance about Germany's future? But what if it's a trick? Isn't this against the "total war against Hitler" principle? etc.

But to say that there is no threat--to say it's just "a tiny minoriity of extremists" or that they "are not representative of Islam as a whole" is cowardly self-delusion. While they don't represent Islam as a whole, they sure DO represent POLITICAL AND MILITARY ISLAM as a whole, and it is this Islam that is threathening to take over the west.

That most Muslims in, say, Indonesia or Kuridstan do not agree with this political Islam is of little relevance if in London its leaders and followers can call for the death of all those who insult Islam... while the foreign minister is worried sick about how the cartoonists were "insensitive".

Sorry, but, I think, this is the situation.
 
It is perfectly true, of course, that most Muslims are not like the Islamists. The problem is that while this premise is true, it simply does not follow that Islam is not a threat to Europe (and the world), or that Islam is not backward and barbaric, or that the west is not at war with it.

You see, the fact that only a minority is extremist was trivially true for EVERY SINGLE AGRESSIVE NATION OR VIOLENT POLITICAL MOVEMENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. But it simply doesn't matter: what matters is what the goal of the NATION OR MOVEMENT is, not the goal of every particular individual in it.

Consider, by analogy, Nazi Germany. Were most Germans fanatical Nazis? We most Nazis openly in favor of the holocaust? No. Most Germans supported Hitler for emotional or other reasons having little to do with the jews; even most Nazis didn't think he really "meant it" when he talked about their extermination. People joined the Nazi party for reasons as prosaic as getting a better job, without the slightest thought of what Hitler had in mind.

Does this mean that the Nazis and Germans--as a body--didn't commit the holocaust? Does this mean that in 1942 the USA was not in war with Nazi Germany because not all Nazi Germans hated it and many were opposed to Hitler's declaration of war against it? Of course not. Why? Because what matters is that the holocaust and WWII were the goal of those who who led, educated, financed, politically motivated, etc., Germany and Nazism at the time.

Same here. The goal of Islam--the "green", political, Sunni Islam, in particular--is a worldwide Muslim Chalifate. The Muslims regimes in the world openly say so, and educated their people for it. In particular, the goal includes the destruction of israel (sorry, the "zionist entity" in "occupied Palestine") and the taking over and establishment of Sharia law in Europe, in stages.

That this is the goal of ISLAM, of the Islamic governments and religious leaders, does not mean that this is the goal of every single Muslim. It does not mean it is the goal of MOST Muslims, either. But that is as irrelevant as saying that it wasn't the goal of all Germans to kill the jews. It IS the goal of those who lead, educate, finance, and propagandize for Islam; it is supporters of this goal that their people and troops take orders from.

What, then, WOULD matter? What can Muslims do to change this? Again, let's use Nazi Germany. The Nazi resistance to Hitler mattered not because they merely disliked Hitler--many Germans did--but because they acted to take POLITICAL control of Germany from the Nazis. Had they succeeded, then war with Germany and the holocaust would have surely quickly stopped, since the new leaders and educators and fianciers of Germany would have stopped both.

Similar movements DO exist in the Muslim world, and are a reason for hope. I could name, offhand, at least half a dozen political leaders of this anti-radical-Islam movement. But let us not kid outselves: they are NOT represnetative of the Islamic world's politics and power. They are much closer to what the German resistance was. Unless they win (and it seems unlikely, unfortunately, that they will) then Islam will continue to be a threat and will continue to try and take over the west (and massacre the jews in the bargain), because this is what political Islam wants.

In the meantime, we face a choice: either realize the danger and do somethign about it, or not.

I agree that it is difficult to decide what to do: it is hard to encourage the moderate political movements while fighting radical Islam. I am offering no magic solution; indeed, the allies faced a similar problem when dealing with the German resistance--do they give assurance about Germany's future? But what if it's a trick? Isn't this against the "total war against Hitler" principle? etc.

But to say that there is no threat--to say it's just "a tiny minoriity of extremists" or that they "are not representative of Islam as a whole" is cowardly self-delusion. While they don't represent Islam as a whole, they sure DO represent POLITICAL AND MILITARY ISLAM as a whole, and it is this Islam that is threathening to take over the west.

That most Muslims in, say, Indonesia or Kuridstan do not agree with this political Islam is of little relevance if in London its leaders and followers can call for the death of all those who insult Islam... while the foreign minister is worried sick about how the cartoonists were "insensitive".

Sorry, but, I think, this is the situation.
well I believe you. I believe you are at war with Islam as is the tiny minority that share your extremist views....I'm assuming that is who you refer to as "we"..

To this I say "so what" between all of you I think your influence on anyone that matters is close as dammit to zero.
 
To this I say "so what" between all of you I think your influence on anyone that matters is close as dammit to zero.

And my mother dresses me funny, too.

I suppose this means you concede the point?

In addition, you seem to think that there needs to be a decision by "somebody who matters" in the west for the west to really be in war with Islam.

Not so. The west is at war with Islam because of what political Islam does. It's not up to the west to decide it it's in war or not: war requires only one side to be agressive.
 
That most Muslims in, say, Indonesia or Kuridstan do not agree with this political Islam is of little relevance if in London its leaders and followers can call for the death of all those who insult Islam...
Some pesky facts:

Muslims tell Yard [ie New Scotland Yard --- Dr A] to charge protesters

Britain's leading Islamic body yesterday called on Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police commissioner, to press charges against the extremists behind last week’s inflammatory protests in London over the “blasphemous” cartoons of the prophet Muhammad...

In London, Inayat Bunglawala of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said the extremists should be prosecuted. “The Metropolitan police should now consider all the evidence they have gathered from the protests to see if they can prosecute the extremists,” he said.

“It is time the police acted, but in a way so as not to make them martyrs of the Prophet’s cause, which is what they want, but as criminals. Ordinary Muslims are fed up with them.”
 
World War III began on Sept 11th, 2001.

Muslims have no history of rising up against the crazed totalitarian regimes ruling them. The only democracies in the middle east are there because the U.S. stepped in, kicked the dictators out on their asses, and handed democracies to these Muslims on silver platters, all paid for with American money and lives.

The war is on. It will escalate over the coming year. Once Iran is bombed this summer, things will ratchet up.

I hope Europe is ready to take its gloves off and help us out.
 
And my mother dresses me funny, too.

I suppose this means you concede the point?

In addition, you seem to think that there needs to be a decision by "somebody who matters" in the west for the west to really be in war with Islam.

Not so. The west is at war with Islam because of what political Islam does. It's not up to the west to decide it it's in war or not: war requires only one side to be agressive.
yes, i concede that you are at war with Islam. I don't concede that you have anything other than an extremist minority sharing your views.

I find your "we are at war with Islam" on par with "we are at war with the infidel"... I can only rely on the vast majority of rational thinkers to moderate the extremist fringes.
 
Some pesky facts:

Why "pesky"?

I SPECIFICALLY SAID both that a). most Muslims are not extremists, and b). that there IS hope, if Muslims oganize politically against the extremists. This seems like an example of this. The point is, this does not change the fact that the protestors were calling for the death of the journalists in London in the first place.

If "ordinary Muslims are fed up with them", as the MCB says, that's a good sign. But the MCB hardly hardly has a good record on human rights or tolerance itself. I suspect, perhaps wrongly, that they are more afraid of a backlash than anything.
 
I find your "we are at war with Islam" on par with "we are at war with the infidel"...

But, Fool, if the Islamic world declares it is in war with the infidels, then automatically the infidels are at war with Islam, are they not?

As for the "vast majority of moderates", they existed in Germany, too... but they don't seem to be able to stop the terrorist bombings, embassy burnings, death threats, and so on of the "tiny minority of extemists", just as as "vast majority of moderates" in Germanyt couldn't stop the "tiny minority of extremists" from doing all that annoying stuff, like genociding the jews, gypsies, and Slavs while trying to take over the world by force.

P.S.

Algeria, Palestine, and others ELECTED Islamist governments IN DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS. A popular revolution (at least at the time) swept them to power in Iran. In Egypt, Turkey, and elsewhere fundamentalist parties have massive support, winning 10%-20% of the population over at least in polls, if not in elections.

If they're such a "tiny minority of extremists", how come they keep having such popular support?
 
Why "pesky"?

I SPECIFICALLY SAID...
You specifically said what I specifically quoted.

If "ordinary Muslims are fed up with them", as the MCB says, that's a good sign. But the MCB hardly hardly has a good record on human rights or tolerance itself.
Feel free to expand on that.

I suspect, perhaps wrongly, that they are more afraid of a backlash than anything.
Yeah, they may be doing everything they can to condemn and root out extremists, but at least you can "suspect" that their opposition to murder and terrorism stems from some motive other than a distaste for murder and terrorism. And the motive you've chosen? Ah, cowardice.
 
But, Fool, if the Islamic world declares it is in war with the infidels, then automatically the infidels are at war with Islam, are they not?

If the "Islamic world" did that, then we would be at war with "the Islamic world" -- whatever that was. If, on the other hand, a loud-barking extermist group claims that "The Islamic world is at war with the infidels" ... Well, loud-barking extremists of all types say a lot of ********, and fortunately that doesn't make the ******** true.
 
Sorry, but, I think, this is the situation.
Allthough I do not agree with Skeptic in his assertion that we ARE at war with Islam, I don't understand why nobody takes the minority argument more seriusly.

For the record - I don't think the Islamists who's sufficiently mad to think they would gain anything from a war with the west is enough to really set a full scale war in motion. But I must admit, that I'm a bit surpriced that they do have THIS MUCH support in the muslim world.

And could we not all agree, that Skeptics argument at least is true to the extend that, IF the extremists gets closer to financing and political leadership, then they MIGHT start a real war? Then the discussion would rather be, whether or not they are getting close to that leadership. Again - I do NOT think that they have the necessary power right now, I do however think that they are getting closer, and that makes me worry a bit.
 
Allthough I do not agree with Skeptic in his assertion that we ARE at war with Islam, I don't understand why nobody takes the minority argument more seriusly.
I do take extremist minorities seriously, I just don't reward them with the same status as mainstream views.... One thing I always notice about extremists is that they all think they have some sort of silent majority behind them....
 
Some pesky facts:

And some more:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4682262.stm
...snip...

On Saturday, Asghar Bukhari, chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, said the demonstration in London on Friday should have been stopped by police because the group had been advocating violence.

He said the protesters "did not represent British Muslims".

Mr Bukhari told the BBC News website: "The placards and chants were disgraceful and disgusting, Muslims do not feel that way.

"I condemn them without reservation, these people are less representative of Muslims than the BNP are of the British people."

He said that Muslims were angry over satirical cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in European papers but it was "outrageous" for anyone to advocate extreme action or violence.

"We believe it [the protest] should have been banned and the march stopped.

...snip...
 
And some more:

and more...
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/culture/?id=15333
SYDNEY - Islamic clerics in Australia will have to register their credentials and adhere to a strict code of conduct under proposals put forward by a government-backed group of moderate Muslims to curb extremists.


The Muslim Advisory Council, created by Prime Minister John Howard in the wake of July's London bombings, said a registration system would allow Muslims and the wider community to distinguish between responsible clerics and "mavericks" on the fringes of society.


"Unlike Christianity, we don't have a hierarchy of Muslim clerics in Australia. Anyone can get up in the mosque and say they are an imam and give a sermon," council chairman Ameer Ali said.


"Then if they say something irresponsible or rash, it gets picked up in the media and the whole community is tarnished and we all get portrayed as extremists or terrorists or whatnot.


"The number of mavericks is tiny but they have created an image problem for the Muslim community in Australia."

Seems a better approach than publishing the words of the extremists and ranting back at them eh?
 
and more...
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/culture/?id=15333


Seems a better approach than publishing the words of the extremists and ranting back at them eh?

This has been suggested in Denmark as well (more than 2 years ago I think), and I too think that would be a very good idea. This only count's for muslim imams in the west though, and they do not talk for all western muslims either. But if we have a problem, then it's not really with the muslims already IN the west is it? I mean it wasn't western muslims that burned down the two Danish embassies (besides the Danish embassies in Indoniesia and Thailand has been closed down due to rising tensions - how wonderful, eh?)
 
If the "Islamic world" did that, then we would be at war with "the Islamic world" -- whatever that was. If, on the other hand, a loud-barking extermist group claims that "The Islamic world is at war with the infidels" ... Well, loud-barking extremists of all types say a lot of ********, and fortunately that doesn't make the ******** true.

I'd like to announce the complete and total surrender of the Western World/infidels/cartoonists. Thank you, war's over. Nothing more to see here. :)
 
This has been suggested in Denmark as well (more than 2 years ago I think), and I too think that would be a very good idea. This only count's for muslim imams in the west though, and they do not talk for all western muslims either. But if we have a problem, then it's not really with the muslims already IN the west is it? I mean it wasn't western muslims that burned down the two Danish embassies (besides the Danish embassies in Indoniesia and Thailand has been closed down due to rising tensions - how wonderful, eh?)

Well, it was a bunch of Danish (i.e. Western) Muslims who put the cartoons on tour in the Middle East. Everybody seems to be forgetting them, or perhaps they're ideologically embarassing.
 
World War III began on Sept 11th, 2001.

Muslims have no history of rising up against the crazed totalitarian regimes ruling them. The only democracies in the middle east are there because the U.S. stepped in, kicked the dictators out on their asses, and handed democracies to these Muslims on silver platters, all paid for with American money and lives.

The war is on. It will escalate over the coming year. Once Iran is bombed this summer, things will ratchet up.

I hope Europe is ready to take its gloves off and help us out.

That's right, the only important country in the world is the USA. Thousands of deaths in other countries are inconsequential.
 

I saw Bukhari interviewed on television yesterday - not the clip that is on the website now. He has a lot of interesting things to say there, though, including the bit about the worst of the British protesters being a tiny number of people - a group of about 50 - but that they represent a real danger to British society because of the distorted image they project about Muslim attitudes.
 

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