Solar Power

[Ed]

I am going to build a house shortly and I thought about solar heating and electricity generation.

After checking out some sites, it became apparent to me that the financials just don't work. It seems that the payback is about 20 years for an electric system. I am uncomfortable with tieing up assets for 20 years to see a return. I couldn't find similar data for a heating system.

While the green nature of such systems is appealing, it appears that for a system that would make any sort of dent in monthly expenses you will be in the hole for a good long period.

Anyone else investigate this stuff? BTW I am in CT. Tuson might be different.

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

Right. Except in states where the sun is very abundant AND there is a huge tax incentive (California), solar is pretty well cost prohibitive.

In fact, several of the sites I checked out recommend insulating the attic more over alternative power.

http://www.mrsolar.com sells "grid ready" kits starting at $7600.

I think to make the system cost effective, you'd need to add some wind power (relatively cheap but potentially noisy).

Anyway, after looking into it, I'm looking at spending ~$200 on more insulation in the attic as the most cost effective bang for my buck. And possibly, building a shade cover for my AC unit.

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

Oh, I wanted to add that the greatest savings I've seen so far from my efforts to lower my electric bill is from compact fluorescent bulbs.

I've only been using them for 2 months but it appears my electric use has gone down 20%.

The best place I've found them is at Menards where you can get 4 60W (13W real) for $9.

I also bought some 100W (23W real) when they were on sale 2 for $9 (I should have bought a bunch!).

They also:

Provide more light (I switched 40W for 60W, 60W for 100W)
Generate less heat
Are long lasting (5-7 years)

My costs were around $60 to replace most of the house.

I still have to do the flood lights outside and the 3-way bulbs but the costs on these specialty bulbs means I'm waiting for them to burn out before replacement.

And hopefully in 5-7 years when they start burning out we'll have LED bulbs... they kick CFBs butt for energy efficiency and long life.

I've replaced all our night lights with LED because I got tired of changing the little bulbs. And I'm looking forward to LED Christmas lights.

 

[Ed]

Oh, I wanted to add that the greatest savings I've seen so far from my efforts to lower my electric bill is from compact fluorescent bulbs.

I've replaced all our night lights with LED because I got tired of changing the little bulbs. And I'm looking forward to LED Christmas lights.

Thanks. One thing that might pay out here in the frozen north would be a solar heater for our pool. Who cares if it is cloudy in the winter?

You have any thoughts on Propane versus oil?

 

[Jeff Corey]

We just finished putting a modular house on LI's North Fork. If you are near the Sound in CT, the weather conditions are not conducive to solar heating or electrical generation. R 29 insulation is cost-effective.

 

[Badger]

If I'm stating the obvious, I apologize.

Maximize windows on the south side of the house for passive solar heating of your interior. You could consider tile or brick floor that will retain more heat than wood, carpet, or lino. You'll also want to go with energy efficient windows, obviously.

Double the thickness of your walls (2x6 or 2x8) to increase insulation. This, combined with recessed windows will allow maximum sunlight into your house in winter, and minimum sunlight in summer (sun higher overhead, windows shaded by being recessed in thick walls).

Install radiant heat, such as in floor heating. You could probably link it into a solar water heater system to minimize costs.

Consider a woodburning stove. There are models that run on sawdust pellets, as well as on grain, corncobs, whatever.

I am partial to natural gas, but don't know how accessable that is for you. Therefore, I'd suggest propane, as I know the natural gas market is expanding in your area, and it'd be easier to convert if access becomes available.

Minimize air leakage. Make sure all doors and windows seal so that there are no drafts. You could also look at insulating your wall plugs, as it seems there can be significant heat loss through them, too.

And that's about all I know.

 

[Crossbow]

The best I have ever heard about is a person who uses the DC current generated by solar cells to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water (which comes from a nearby stream);
Then feed the hydrogen into a storage system where it can be later fed into a fuel cell;
Then take the DC power generated by the fuel cell into an inverter where it can be changed into household 120VAC at 60 Hz.

Payback time was about 14 years.

I hope this helps!

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

The best I have ever heard about is a person who uses the DC current generated by solar cells to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water (which comes from a nearby stream);
Then feed the hydrogen into a storage system where it can be later fed into a fuel cell;
Then take the DC power generated by the fuel cell into an inverter where it can be changed into household 120VAC at 60 Hz.

Payback time was about 14 years.

I hope this helps!

Now that sounds massively, massively inefficient.... why not just feed the power directly with an inverter???

 

[Earthborn]

why not just feed the power directly with an inverter???

I'd imagine that the fuel cell is used to store the energy, for when it gets dark and it isn't generated.

It is probably true that a lot of energy is lost with this arrangement, but you get it when you need it, instead of when you don't.

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

I'd imagine that the fuel cell is used to store the energy, for when it gets dark and it isn't generated.

It is probably true that a lot of energy is lost with this arrangement, but you get it when you need it, instead of when you don't.

I would still think storage in a lead-acid battery arrangement would still be both more cost effective and efficient. It's certainly going to be safer and have easier storage requirements.

 

[Crossbow]

Now that sounds massively, massively inefficient.... why not just feed the power directly with an inverter???

True, one does lose some efficency by using the hydrogen to fuel cell to inverter process, however the process does provide a means to store energy which would not be possible if the solar energy were immediately converted to electrical energy.

Further, if the solar energy were immediately converted into electrical energy, then one could expect some significant problems that would occur as the amount of ambient solar energy changed. However, the fuel cell system eliminates this sort of problem.

 

[fishbob]

It seems that the payback is about 20 years for an electric system.

Your payback time will decrease as the price of oil increases. Along about mid-summer, you might see payback reduced to a year and a half or so.

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

Just an FYI, that I've continued my efforts to make my house more energy efficient.

So far:

Compact Flourscents - $60

Re-did a VERY inefficient and poorly constructed 6x12 catherdal ceiling - $130

Added insulation to the attic (ongoing) - $30 (will eventually be about $100-$150)

Lo-E film for some windows we plan to replace in a few years - $90 (difficult to install... difficult or impossible to smooth perfectly so they look like crap... work GREAT on old, crappy windows)

Results to date:

Jan-Jun '03 - 46 Kw/day
Jan-Jun '04 - 36 Kw/day

So far, my math from the electric bill says that my investment will pay for itself in a little over a year. However, some of these improvements were just this last week, so we should see even more savings.

Edited to add: Just wanted to say that we certainly FEEL the difference, especially at night when temperatures outside can now dip from 80 to 55 degrees and the house is still pretty warm in the morning or during the day when the house used to feel very hot upstairs and now feels much cooler.

 

[ceptimus]

Preventing draughts around the edges of doors and windows is often said to have the fastest payback time of all.

 

[Anders]

Now that sounds massively, massively inefficient.... why not just feed the power directly with an inverter???

Yes, it's inefficient, but that system has very great advantage: You can store the energy! To store pure electric energy is difficult and very expensive. Store hydrogen gas is quite simple and cheap. You can generate the hydrogen gas while at at any time, and use it for heating or other things when needed. And while the equipment is expensive, the sun shine is for free

The solution is problay the one we're gonna have in our cars in about 10 years or so: fuel-cells, with hydrogen gas tanks.

 

[T'ai Chi]

I am going to build a house shortly and I thought about solar heating and electricity generation.

After checking out some sites, it became apparent to me that the financials just don't work. It seems that the payback is about 20 years for an electric system. I am uncomfortable with tieing up assets for 20 years to see a return. I couldn't find similar data for a heating system.

While the green nature of such systems is appealing, it appears that for a system that would make any sort of dent in monthly expenses you will be in the hole for a good long period.

Anyone else investigate this stuff? BTW I am in CT. Tuson might be different.

20 years?? I'd rather get some bonds if I'm going to wait that long for the payback.

 

[TeaBag420]

Re: Re: Solar Power

20 years?? I'd rather get some bonds if I'm going to wait that long for the payback.

On the other hand, you'd likely get your payback 10 years before you paid off your mortgage. And your solar power rig would presumably be part of the mortgaged property, or rolled into the mortgage via a re-fi. The question is really how long are you going to live in the house?

(yes, I know about 15 year mortgages).

Solar directly into the inverter versus the cross-country route to a fuel cell ... solar directly into inverter means you're reducing your utility costs, or in the best circumstance, selling power back to the utility company.

The fuel cell is an unnecessary step unless you're completely off the grid.

 

[Ladewig]

If there is a stream on your property, then you might consider micro-hydro-electric power.