Socialists win in France

[Tricky]

Yet another European country is seeing the Socialist Party make major gains.

French voters slap Chirac in elections

As I recall, Chirac was tremendously unpopular, but his resistance to Bush gave him renewed life. Looks like that has run out now.

"It's not just a defeat," said veteran political analyst and commentator Alain Duhamel. "It's a disaster."

Results being tallied Sunday night showed the Socialists and their allies taking control of at least 21 of 26 regional governments. Nationally, the Socialists and their allies were winning almost 50 percent of the vote, compared to 37 percent for the government and about 13 percent for the anti-immigration National Front party.

Apparently the big issue was the cost of health, education and pension reform.

Also uncertain was the future of the government's unpopular attempts to cut the spiraling costs of France's generous pension system and other aspects of the welfare state. The government has said changes were necessary to make the French economy more dynamic. But the reforms, including an increase in the number of years worked to qualify for a pension and a planned reduction in some unemployment benefits, have prompted bitter and disruptive protests over the past two years by a wide range of workers.

Being typically Americacentric, I wonder how this new alignment will affect the US's already fragile relationship with France.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Being typically Americacentric, I wonder how this new alignment will affect the US's already fragile relationship with France.

Although fairly Americanocentric myself, my first question is what will happen to the French economy and how that will affect the EU.

If the government does not step up and try to staunch the bleeding -- related to the cost of benefits and (at least partially resulting) high unemployment rate -- I don't know how long France can limp along. Until now, they have managed to eke by, but some of that was from their use of the EU countries and resources to mask a portion of their own problems. I don't know how long they can last if they aren't willing to consider reforms to their welfare and benefits system.

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[Tricky]

Re: Re: Socialists win in France

Although fairly Americanocentric myself, my first question is what will happen to the French economy and how that will affect the EU.

If the government does not step up and try to staunch the bleeding -- related to the cost of benefits and (at least partially resulting) high unemployment rate -- I don't know how long France can limp along. Until now, they have managed to eke by, but some of that was from their use of the EU countries and resources to mask a portion of their own problems. I don't know how long they can last if they aren't willing to consider reforms to their welfare and benefits system.

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A very good point, but the relationship may be reversed, with unemployment resulting in high health costs (at least, costs paid by the government).

[pedantic nitpick] You have staunch supporters. You stanch bleeding. [/pedantic nitpick]

 

[Jon_in_london]

Re: Re: Socialists win in France

Until now, they have managed to eke by, but some of that was from their use of the EU countries and resources to mask a portion of their own problems.

And EU expansion will hurt France because they will find it harder to dominate. Although it will hurt countries like Spain much more because they wont be the poorest anymore.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Re: Re: Re: Socialists win in France

[pedantic nitpick] You have staunch supporters. You stanch bleeding. [/pedantic nitpick]

pedantic reply:

" Staunch is an alternate spelling of stanch . . . . Usage Note: Staunch is more common than stanch as the spelling of the adjective. Stanch is more common than staunch as the spelling of the verb." While more common, either alternate spelling is allowed. American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition (c) 2000.

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See also:

(1) stop the flow of a liquid; "staunch the blood flow"; "stem the tide" www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

(2) Defintion: [v] as of the flow of a liquid flowing, such as blood from a wound
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/staunch (Webster's)

(3) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/staunch

(4) http://www.yourdictionary.net/staunch.html

 

[Luke T.]

The EU is doomed to fail for the same reasons the Articles of Confederation in the U.S. failed. And if that isn't a modern enough example, there is always the U.N. as a model of how poorly confederations work.

 

[Cleopatra]

Ahem. Regional Governments mean nothing in Europe....on the contrary it's like a law that voters tend to vote in the elections of the regional governments and municipalities the opposition.Don't party, there is no reason.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Re: Re: Re: Socialists win in France

A very good point, but the relationship may be reversed, with unemployment resulting in high health costs (at least, costs paid by the government).

Oh, meant to comment on this, but got sidetracked.

The cause/effect relationship is hard to strip down to the "root"; you may be right in that unemployment assisted in the hemorrhage of public money. At this point, the two factors are (or at least appear to be) locked into a cycle where each tends to reinforce the negative trend of the other.

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[Tricky]

pedantics

pedantic reply:

" Staunch is an alternate spelling of stanch . . . . Usage Note: Staunch is more common than stanch as the spelling of the adjective. Stanch is more common than staunch as the spelling of the verb." While more common, either alternate spelling is allowed. American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition (c) 2000.

N/A

See also:

(1) stop the flow of a liquid; "staunch the blood flow"; "them the tide" www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

(2) Defintion: [v] as of the flow of a liquid flowing, such as blood from a wound
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/staunch (Webster's)

(3) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/staunch

(4) http://www.yourdictionary.net/staunch.html

Them books is all wrong!
(well, they're right, but "stanch" is preferred by better writers for the verb.)
http://www.bartleby.com/68/1/5701.html

 

[corplinx]

The problem with france are the french people. You try to reduce governernment mandated vacation leave from 5 weeks to 4 weeks and they riot in the streets yelling "Social Regression!".

As much as they believe western free market advocates are brainwashed, I think it is them who drank the koolaid. I'd say true free market ideas aren't really religiously held by more than 25 percent of the US population.

You don't see rioting in the US streets protesting further government socialism here for instance.

 

[Earthborn]

The EU is doomed to fail for the same reasons the Articles of Confederation in the U.S. failed. And if that isn't a modern enough example, there is always the U.N. as a model of how poorly confederations work.

You are sooo right, Luke. In a confederation there is always one or two powerful states who think they can do without the rest and ruin the system for all. The UN is a very good example: the reason that it doesn't work, as one particular superpower doesn't want it to work.

Another good example of the failure of confederations: Switzerland. Not a day goes by or we hear about the turmoil in Switzerland. It certainly is one of the more unstable regions in the world...

 

[Grammatron]

*snip*
The UN is a very good example: the reason that it doesn't work, as one particular superpower doesn't want it to work.
*snip*

That's a fairly strong statement to make, I take it you have some great evidence to back it up?

 

[Jon_in_london]

The EU is doomed to fail for the same reasons the Articles of Confederation in the U.S. failed. And if that isn't a modern enough example, there is always the U.N. as a model of how poorly confederations work.

Actually the US is a good model of how federalism CAN work. Except in the US there is (largely) a common identity, culture and language and most importantly the people (largely) WANT to be part of the federation.

This is not the case in the EU- on all counts.

We should really look at the Austro-Hungarian Empire for why a federation of disparate peoples, speaking different languages with different cultures who largely dont want to be together will sicken and collaplse.

 

[Grammatron]

Actually the US is a good model of how federalism CAN work. Except in the US there is (largely) a common identity, culture and language and most importantly the people (largely) WANT to be part of the federation.

This is not the case in the EU- on all counts.

We should really look at the Austro-Hungarian Empire for why a federation of disparate peoples, speaking different languages with different cultures who largely dont want to be together will sicken and collaplse.

You can also look to USSR for such an example.

 

[Elio]

Hello everyone.

I would like to remind that this government was never really popular in the first place.

The preceeding (socialist) government did not that bad and was rather popular.

If former prime minister Jospin was not elected president it's mainly because al lot of the left-wing electorat found smart during the first round to vote for their favourite obscure left-wing groupuscule, saving their vote for Jospin for the secound round. But because of that Jospin never made it to the second round leaving Chirac with an easy win against Le Pen.

Also, those regional elections won't have any effect on France governement, except Chirac will have to fire a few ministers to show he got the message.

Oh ! And about confederations, I was going to cite a least one example which seems to be working, but Earthborn did that before me

Take care.

Elio.

 

[Cleopatra]

Hi Elio and welcome to the forum.

It's only some time that the socialist government in France was sent at home by the voters and we still remember the reasons. The socialist government was deeply involved into every sort of scandal and people were fed up with the authoritarian behavior of the socialists that have turned into a sort of regime.

I don't know what data you have in order to make so light interpretation about the vote of the French people and you present them like they joked with their vote in the first round. Do you have any proof to support your claims or do you suggest that the socialists were the voters of LePen?Do you suggest that the socialist supported the extreme right in France? That's interesting but we need some data to believe you.

 

[Luke T.]

You are sooo right, Luke. In a confederation there is always one or two powerful states who think they can do without the rest and ruin the system for all. The UN is a very good example: the reason that it doesn't work, as one particular superpower doesn't want it to work.

Another good example of the failure of confederations: Switzerland. Not a day goes by or we hear about the turmoil in Switzerland. It certainly is one of the more unstable regions in the world...

Or there are a number of inferior states that are jealous of the power of the powerful state.

Such as the South's jealousies of the industrial power of the North in the U.S. prior to our civil war.

The South was dependent on the North to get its goods to market. And the North's population was growing much quicker than the South, and so the North's representative power in government was growing.

 

[Luke T.]

Actually the US is a good model of how federalism CAN work. Except in the US there is (largely) a common identity, culture and language and most importantly the people (largely) WANT to be part of the federation.

A common currency helps. I suppose the Euro is a good start.

But you also have to have a central government which has eminent domain over the subordinate states. You also need a common defense, and a common revenue raising method to support the central government.

That's just for starters.

 

[MLynn]

Is France even a US ally anymore? I'm under the impression that France hasn't been our ally since WWII.

 

[Outcast]

The Muslims, in their conquest of Europe, were defeated at the Battle of Tours in 732 AD. Their decedents have launch a new and much more successful invasion. Islam is winning the new battle for Europe.