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So: Many experts now agree ... some birds use fire as a weapon.

Black Kites are very nomadic in Australia, where populations ebb and flow with the season and the food supply (Olsen 1995).
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http://www.globalraptors.org/grin/SpeciesResults.asp?specID=8305

I know from experience that our local birds appear in late spring and disappear again around March.
Considering that black kites elsewhere can migrate in continental ranges, I seriously doubt that they lack the range to move around.
 
Dabop said:
http://www.globalraptors.org/grin/SpeciesResults.asp?specID=8305

I know from experience that our local birds appear in late spring and disappear again around March.
Considering that black kites elsewhere can migrate in continental ranges, I seriously doubt that they lack the range to move around.
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Your claim was that they have a home range of 100s of kms.
All you really know is that you don’t see them for a while - not where they leave for and how far. I don’t doubt they are nomadic in Australia and are capable of ranging over large areas, but no one seems to have quantified it, this includes the reference papers cited in your link. I’m not saying this to nitpick, but to explain why I’m sceptical of the claims being made without supporting evidence.

This is the problem with the fire use paper. Personal assumptions that are not backed by any scientific evidence.
 
Um so where is the evidence that they dont move around? I havent seen any studies that say they only fly 100m from their nesting site and never an inch more...
We know they can fly long distances (in fact thousands of kilometers) , ours appear and disappear depending on seasonal food availability and have been found in Oz in WA hundreds of kilometers away from their nesting areas.

To me this suggests that any cllaim that they dont move very far from their nesting area is the more dubious claim, as all evidence we do have shows that isnt usually the case. So far the only support for that claim is your say so- show me the study that shows otherwise.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Of course it's another anecdote. ;)
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Yes, it is, isn't it?!
And that is why I said:
(Very similar to my own observation of love birds in my kitchen: I know what I saw, but if I had to prove what I saw, I would need more than that.)
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Which, for some reason, you didn't want to quote! ;) ;) ;)

It might be a good idea for you to go back and read what I actually wrote.
 
MikeG said:
Seriously? On a sceptics site?

Onus.
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Yes seriously, I have multiple websites and some links to actual studies done that all say they are mostly migratory birds, capable of flying between continents in some cases(some of which I linked to previously) supported by ancidotal evidence that they do fly long (being out of the suburb I am in) distances

I havent seen anything which says they stay within a small distance of their nesting area and to date no citation for this claim- so I am asking for it

So yes- seriously
(same as I would if someone claims the sun doesnt rise in the east- I would ask for the evidence that it doesnt)
What part of this isnt being skeptical?
 
I've been in the thermal in a sailplane with a raptor off my wingtip looking right at me and hundreds in the sky with him staging to get height to migrate south across the Great Lakes.
No dry season raptor can make a living in the wet in Northern Australia....it's underwater aside from zilch thermals. :rolleyes:

Most of you have never in your lives seen rainfall the likes of a monsoon trough....my house in Cairns got 15 mm in 15 minutes the other night and that was not the trough.

rainfall%20graph.jpg


Jabiru is in the discussion area. For the metric challenged ...that's 2 " a day for the entire month of January.
The major highway to Katherine is very often under 6' of water for miles and miles.
Of COURSE the raptors move.
 
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Black Kites are widespread throughout Eurasia, Africa, and Australia. Some populations are migratory and some are resident. In Australia, Black Kites are largely nomadic and probably move around a lot in response to seasonal changes and other challenges/opportunities macdoc describes.

These birds are commensal with humans in many circumstances, feeding from garbage dumps, slaughterhouses, scavenging roadkill, etc. They also take fish, amphibians, small mammals, insects, etc. They are an ultimate human-associated generalist.

During the breeding season, individual birds by necessity become quite sedentary, in addition to the several weeks (~20 days?)they must spend jostling for territories, building nests, etc., the nesting birds are tied to their breeding home range area. Once the eggs are laid, incubation will take another 35 days or so, fledging will take an additional 45 days, and the young birds are not likely to be independent for another 30 days thereafter. So that's a rough estimate of 20 + 35 + 45 + 30 = 130 days at a minimum that the birds are not just free to wander wherever they see smoke on the horizon.

In Australia, nesting occurs during Jul–Nov (dry season). This is described as highly variable, but I assume that birds nesting in Jabiru, for example, would start in July so the young are independent before the worst of the rainy season sets in. Perhaps where the monsoon is not so extreme they get started a little later, but I don't know.

So...during the height of the dry season (when the fires are burning, right?) those birds cannot access fires that aren't in proximity to their individual home ranges. They can wander around chasing smoke December–May, but I don't expect much burning happening then as it's the wet season. As it gets dry enough to burn in May and June, that's when the birds don't have the freedom to chase any far away fires.

THIS is what I mean when I assert that each individual bird does not have many opportunities to forage along fire fronts over the course of a year. It might be just a few days within the foraging range during their sedentary nesting period and really unpredictable during the rest of the year when the birds are more mobile but conditions are less conducive to fire.

Australian friends, I'd appreciate your feedback on whether this makes any sense.

Source life history info on Black Kite.
 
Up north you have your classic 'two seasons a year- wet and dry (wet nov to april)
By the time you get down as far as Brisbane, you start to get a more temperate climate system happening, less major wet season, more rain during the winter months
Get down as far south as Sydney and the rainfall is pretty much even(ish) all year, only minor peaks around march
Go further south again to Melbourne, and you find jan-march are some of the driest months of the year

Australia is a really BIG place- its only just smaller than the 48 joined states of the US mainland (ie excluding Alaska), yet its total population is the equivalent of three New Yorks....

eta and the Black Kite is found all along the east coast right down to Melbourne and over much of the continent east to west as well, only South Australia and the sothern part of Western Australia seem to have defeated them (mostly because thats basically the Simpson Desert...)
 
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macdoc said:
I think you underestimate the number of fires and the range of kites.
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I did mention it up thread

For that period, the Commission calculated the number of bushfires in Australia varied from approximately 46,000 to 62,000 fires per year, with an average of close to 54,000 fires per year.

The Insititute of Criminology - which used data from fire agencies from 1995-06 to 2005-06 - said the Commission's figures agreed "quite closely" with their own average of nearly 52,000 fires per year.
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And personally I would think that number is probably way underreported, as many fires would happen in places nobody is basically there to see and the summer lightning storms can be quite intense indeed
 
dann said:
Yes, it is, isn't it?!
And that is why I said:

Which, for some reason, you didn't want to quote! ;) ;) ;)

It might be a good idea for you to go back and read what I actually wrote.
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You so misunderstood my post. Maybe you should go back and read mine again. Take the anecdote comment off, which was a jest and see if it doesn't read differently to you. :cool:
 
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Those figures very likely do not include brush control fires or aboriginal fires as they tend to be small and limited.

Van Arnheim Land may have no reporting at all.

I could not recall how many dozens of fires we saw in a week at Kakadu in the dry.,

We got some very nice sunsets out of it tho

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This ancient and modern fire tools

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Punch the little ball with the injector and toss it our of the chopper. Instant fire.
 
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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00063659409477194

Male raptors spend a considerable time
foraging away from their mates
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Furthermore, the
female provided food for herself until about
day 20,
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Top of page 7 in pdf linked above showed that the males observed spent a significant time away from the nest varying between 40% and approximately 10% of the time away from the nest at different times

from https://australianmuseum.net.au/black-kite
Habitat

The Black Kite is found in a variety of habitats, from timbered watercourses to open plains, and is often observed in and around outback towns. Although it is more normally seen in small groups, the Black Kite may form huge flocks of many thousands of birds, especially during grasshopper plagues. No other Australian bird of prey is seen in such large flocks.
Feeding and Diet

The Black Kite preys on lizards, small mammals and insects, especially grasshoppers. It also is a scavenger, and frequents tips in outback towns. Black Kites also gather in flocks around bush fires, and eagerly pounce on small animals as these flee the flames. Both live and dead (carrion) prey is eaten.
Other behaviours and adaptations

They often gather and soar above fires, shooters or workers, watching for flushed prey.
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macdoc said:
Those figures very likely do not include brush control fires or aboriginal fires as they tend to be small and limited.

Van Arnheim Land may have no reporting at all.

I could not recall how many dozens of fires we saw in a week at Kakadu in the dry.,

We got some very nice sunsets out of it tho

https://drscdn.500px.org/photo/148724583/m%3D900/v2?webp=true&sig=c8f468731be1fac88a04a5959996e8db102596d9a74f8628282bacc0435d11a4

This ancient and modern fire tools

https://drscdn.500px.org/photo/1487...c5b0eebcbdc15476173bae4c43fee3b102ba8363fd329

Punch the little ball with the injector and toss it our of the chopper. Instant fire.
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Demonstrate it to a Raptor and see if the light bulb goes on over their head.
 
Here is what these things mean:

Dabop said:
Top of page 7 in pdf linked above showed that the males observed spent a significant time away from the nest varying between 40% and approximately 10% of the time away from the nest at different times
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Quote:Male raptors spend a considerable time foraging away from their mates.

This is raptor breeding biology 101. It is nearly always the case that the female takes primary responsibility for incubation and brooding and that the male's job is to obtain food for himself, his mate, and the nestlings before they're strong enough to be left alone for a bit. There is an important matter of scale, however. Away from the nest still means within their territory. These birds are NOT nomadic during the breeding season; they are attached to their territory. If anything, this paper illustrates how important it is for males to stick close by to prevent neighboring males from attempting an extra-pair copulation.

As for the females:

Quote:Furthermore, the female provided food for herself until about day -20,
Right. For about 3 weeks before the first egg is even laid, the female does not leave the nest site. This is when she begins to rely on the male to provide 100% of her food. For 3 weeks before, during the few days of egg-laying, during all of incubation, and during at least the first week of the nestlings' lives, the female does not even leave the nest, let alone leave the territory.
 
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So far you havent said anything I didnt already, except that they 'dont leave their territory'- so can you point out to me exactly how big is their territory, and can you show the papers confirming that the male doesnt leave it?
Thanks in anticipation
 
I'm not exactly sure how this applies to the topic at hand. Of course nesting raptors will stick nearby to feed their chicks ..but they ain't nesting when the territory is underwater.
 
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