Skepticism and The Memo Redux

[corplinx]

I thought we should start a new thread on skepticism and the memo. By now, we are no longer arguing the authenticity of the memos. Right now memo apologists have as much street cred as flat earthers or 7 day creationists to me.

I see the following trends in thought though:

1. memos are fakes, this proves the media is biased

Dan Rather doing a hatchetjob on Bush based on faulty info doesnt make the entire establishment media biased. If you believe that, pick up a wall street journal.

2. memos are fakes, kerry campaign forged them

This might be true but there isn't evidence ergo its not a skeptical position.

3. memos are fakes, CBS got snookered

this is the skeptical position, people have more proof these are fakes than we have that uri geller bends spoons. There is nothing _political_ about this postion.

4. memos are fakes, its a rove dirty trick

This is something some democrats and partisans claimed because they are honest enough to admit it after getting the evidence but have to turn it into an attack somehow

5. so what about the memos? they lied about kerrys vietnam service

This is the position democratunderground had on the issue along with the same mantras about "some expert i cant name said it could have been done on a typewriter" but steering clear of supporting CBS still.

6. The memos could be genuine.

This is what I call the Colonel Klink postion. I see NOTHINK! Let me be fair, people in this position are either new to the table or are in blanket denial probably out of their hatred of the memos target.

There is however no excuse in my opinion of not doing a simple google search and finding the massive amount against these memos being authentic.




Now, these positions covered the range from right to left and only left out the silly "Hillary planted them" idea. To me, this is a litmus test issue. Within four hours of this story breaking there was enough info including overlays done with Microsoft word to pretty much tell that CBS had the burden to prove authenticity and by the time experts on the selectric weren't able to reproduce the memo the next day, it was time to put the dog to rest.

I'm sorry some of you on this forum will be offended by this. Dorian Gray for one took the democratunderground approach. I would name other name but Gray attacked me specifically so I don't mind returning the volley.

 

[BobK]

I agree. The possibility of the documents being genuine has totally evaporated.

So, what is the reason that Rather is still sticking to his guns?

Some of the possibilities...

Arrogant? He is that, but he's not stupid.

Senile? Not likely.

Committing career suicide? Don't buy that one either.

If they don't fess up within the next couple days what the real deal is, I would have to go with protecting someone.

Protecting who?

John Kerry? Nah. He'd lay it on him in a minute if it's true.

DNC? Same thing with them.

He does have a daughter that I heard is considering running for mayor someplace in Texas in a couple years. Austin maybe???

I'm not saying it's true, but this is something to consider. She could have gotten snookered by someone with the documents.

CBS was so glad to get the smear info, everyone's eyes glazed over with joy and they didn't vet it properly. Just rushed it onto the air.

What father, nearing the end of his career, wouldn't try to keep their child's career from being damaged?

If he ends up falling on his sword without further explaination of the facts in the next few days, it might be a possibility.

I say only a possibility.

Anyone have any other ideas on his intransigent position?

Bob

 

[Meadmaker]

Well, I guess I'm the flat earther around here, since I think the memos could be genuine, but I want to ask a slightly different question. I will assume, for the sake of argument, that the memos are fake. Then, there is another position to take.

The memos are fake, but they say absolutely nothing of relevance. Someone faked memos that said things we already knew.



The biggest question in my mind is why these memos, real or forged, are considered news. Everything in them is stuff we already knew.



Just to clarify something, the act of forgery would be news. If someone is forging things, that's news. But why would they bother? The only people who see anything at all damning in these memos are intensely partisan to begin with.

 

[HarryKeogh]

the first thing that made me realize that the memo was fake was when the memo writer started bitching about the JREF server being down.

 

[WildCat]

The memos are fake, but they say absolutely nothing of relevance. Someone faked memos that said things we already knew.

More accurately, someone faked memos stating what you want to believe. That you desperately needed official confirmation of.

Something like this document has been the Holy Grail of Dem strategists ever since Ann Richards ran against Bush for Texas governor. The issue has been raised in every GW Bush election for over 10 years now, but the smoking gun evidence has been missing. These documents would prove it, if they were real. But they're not. Because either:

- They were made by Killians secretary who owned a custom-font $4000 IBM Selectric Composer machine, and was the only person in the world who used it to take dictation and write memos.

- They were produced by a one-of-a-kind typewriter not seen before or since.

- They were made recently using the most popular word processing computer program in the world, at it's default settings.

Occam's Razor, people.

 

[crimresearch]

So, what is the reason that Rather is still sticking to his guns?...
Arrogant? He is that, but he's not stupid. Senile? Not likely.
Committing career suicide? Don't buy that one either.



Mmmm...both Rather and CBS, like the rest of the 'couch potato posse' journalists/'entertainers', have done pretty well for themselves despite getting caught lying and forging repeatedly....

 

[corplinx]

Mmmm...both Rather and CBS, like the rest of the 'couch potato posse' journalists/'entertainers', have done pretty well for themselves despite getting caught lying and forging repeatedly....

To be fair, not all of CBS is sticking to the Rather/60Mins defense. The cbsnews.com website had a pretty damning article about the whole thing.

 

[Rob Lister]

To be fair, not all of CBS is sticking to the Rather/60Mins defense. The cbsnews.com website had a pretty damning article about the whole thing.

CBS is sticking to the story for a different reason than CBS news. Dan Rather is probably the most powerful player at CBS news but he isn't anywhere near the most powerful player at CBS. To CBS, famous and infamous have the same meaning. To CBS News, cluching at straws is the only hope they have. They are NOT going to get Dan to retract the story and they certainly don't want to fire him.

The blogs are giddy with the actual source. Rather's daughter appears to be one of the major suspects in the giddy-outbreak, blog-wise. I could get into the details of when/why (and I will if asked) but I'm not buying it enough as of yet to think it post-worthy.

This isn't over yet, btw. So long as Dan stand's by his empty water pistols, then this will be an issue of some substance until the election. The white house has just started chiming in on the issue but they are certainly not doing it as the DNC would have them do. They started with Laura. Good political move, IMO. I'd have started with Rummy because the implications in the CYA memo are chargeable and would/could/might constitute an reason to conduct an 'official investigation'. That might still happen.

Did the DNC have anything to do with this? Probably but probably not as much as the rabid-right might believe. I'm fairly confident that Dan would have 'consulted' them and they probably just shrugged their sholders. To them it was floating a balloon. That the balloon would be a Heindenburg(sp?) crashing their party they might not have considered.

Nuff said.

 

[DavidJames]

Right now memo apologists have as much street cred as flat earthers or 7 day creationists to me.

Let's not forget the swifties

 

[Meadmaker]

More accurately, someone faked memos stating what you want to believe. That you desperately needed official confirmation of.

Something like this document has been the Holy Grail of Dem strategists ever since Ann Richards ran against Bush for Texas governor. The issue has been raised in every GW Bush election for over 10 years now, but the smoking gun evidence has been missing. These documents would prove it, if they were real. But they're not. Because either:


I don't get it. We already knew that W was grounded for missing a physical exam. We already know that in order to prove that he even showed up in Alabama, we had to rely on a dental exam. During the spring controversy on the subject, I heard a supporter say that he would show up on the required weekend and go into a room where he would read flight manuals.

These memos, if authentic, would conclusively prove that he was pretty marginal during the last year of service. This is something we already knew. They would also show, if authentic, that not everyone was happy about his performance. Well, duh. Where is the smoking gun here?

I, for one, think the whole issue of Bush's Guard service is irrelevant.

If this was the Holy Grail of Ann Richards, it is no wonder she lost.


I must admit, I assumed these memos were authentic precisely because there was nothing in them worth forging. I think it's pathetic that the Democratic Party is wasting air talking about whether or not Bush showed up for National Guard service when he was 24, or thereabouts. My first reaction to Dan Rather's showing them was that it was embarrassing to be talking about it.

Next, we'll learn that Bush used cocaine! Now that would be a real shocker, wouldn't it?

And then we'll find out that he once went through the express lane with 13 items.

Of course, if we find out he ever had something kind of like sex with an intern, that would be important!

Right now, I intend to vote for Kerry, but I must not understand politics these days. I thought taxes, deficits, war, and things like that were important, not 35 year old attendance issues. However, as ridiculous as these memos are, if the Kerry camp was involved, and they are forgeries, I definitely won't vote for him. Even if they are not forgeries, if they are closely linked to the Kerry campaign, I don't want to reward this kind of sleazeball campaigning. I may end up voting for Badnarak. (Shane, if you are reading this, congratulations.)

 

[BPSCG]

I thought taxes, deficits, war, and things like that were important, not 35 year old attendance issues.

I agree. So why has the Kerry camp made such a big deal about four months in Viet Nam and missed TANG meetings? Why doesn't Kerry speak coherently about what we should be doing in Iraq, instead of simply complaining about the cost in dollars and lives, which we already know all too well? Why doesn't he tell us how he would fight the war against the Islamoterrorists, instead of simply complaining that Iraq has somehow distracted us from that war? Why doesn't he tell us what he plans to do about the Social Security and Medicare time bombs, instead of letting his campaign try to claim that Bush is going to gut the programs (kinda ludicrous, when Bush signed a $500 billion Medicare prescription drug plan...)?

He needs to tell his people: "Look, enough of this stupid nonsense trying to pin down Bush over something that may or may not have happened 30 years ago and which only our hard-core faithful care about anyway. I want you to work on how to get my message out to the people; attack Bush on the issues where he's vulnerable, and explain how I would do better. Next person who brings me some supposed 'dirt' on Bush can clean out his desk."

 

[Meadmaker]

He needs to tell his people: "Look, enough of this stupid nonsense trying to pin down Bush over something that may or may not have happened 30 years ago and which only our hard-core faithful care about anyway. I want you to work on how to get my message out to the people; attack Bush on the issues where he's vulnerable, and explain how I would do better. Next person who brings me some supposed 'dirt' on Bush can clean out his desk."

Amen.

And it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

 

[Dorian Gray]

7 day creationists to me.

Wasn't it six days?

I'm sorry some of you on this forum will be offended by this. Dorian Gray for one took the democratunderground approach. I would name other name but Gray attacked me specifically so I don't mind returning the volley.

"No, I never said that. Never said that."

Here is a gift for you.

Dan Rather: "What's the font, Kenneth?"

 

[corplinx]

Dan Rather: "What's the font, Kenneth?"

Hilarious. I hope more people than you and me get that.

 

[BPSCG]

Hilarious. I hope more people than you and me get that.

This isn't the first time Dan's been sucker punched.

 

[crimresearch]

Hey!!! He produced an expert who says that it is perfectly possible that a street person of that era could have produced marks consistent with the ones on Dan's face....

 

[Snide]

Hilarious. I hope more people than you and me get that.

Dan Rather totally copied REM.

 

[BPSCG]

He needs to tell his people: "Look, enough of this stupid nonsense trying to pin down Bush over something that may or may not have happened 30 years ago and which only our hard-core faithful care about anyway. I want you to work on how to get my message out to the people; attack Bush on the issues where he's vulnerable, and explain how I would do better. Next person who brings me some supposed 'dirt' on Bush can clean out his desk."

So what do they do now? This.

I had a look at the video, and my immediate reaction was "People are going to (incorrectly) conflate this with the phony documents flap. They're going to watch this and say, 'Wait a minute - those documents were phony, but now they're running this commercial...?'"

Maybe the Dems are too stupid to get elected.

 

[Jocko]

So what do they do now? This.

I had a look at the video, and my immediate reaction was "People are going to (incorrectly) conflate this with the phony documents flap. They're going to watch this and say, 'Wait a minute - those documents were phony, but now they're running this commercial...?'"

Maybe the Dems are too stupid to get elected.

Oh, and the cherry on top - a Dan Rather interview. That's perfect. How could anyone doubt this?

 

[WildCat]

Oh, and the cherry on top - a Dan Rather interview. That's perfect. How could anyone doubt this?

Not only that, but it shows how important the whole Bush/Guard thing is to the DNC. Neither the DNC nor Kerry have the slightest clue as to what this campaign is about. Are they really this stupid?