Six theists vs. one atheist on Larry King Live

Tricky

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Tricky
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I was channel surfing last night when I saw something you rarely see on TV. It was Larry King and he had a panel of people discussing the question, "What happens after we die." Much to my surprise, King asked the hard questions, and not at all to my surprise, the theists (one catholic, one protestant, one evangelical, one "spiritual", one Jew and one Muslim) all fumbled it badly. Only the atheist directly and rationally answered the questions.

A lot of what they said has been debated here, but in case anyone is interested, here's the transcript.
 
Didn't Monty Python already explore the topic, with a panel of dead guests? Seems to me they would have greater expertise...
 
Mercutio said:
Didn't Monty Python already explore the topic, with a panel of dead guests? Seems to me they would have greater expertise...
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*picks up derail and runs with it*
Good evening. Tonight on 'Is There' we examine the question, 'Is there a life after death?'. And here to discuss it are three dead people... The late Sir Brian Hardacre, former curator of the Imperial War Museum ... (superimposed captions identify them) the late Professor Thynne, until recently an academic, critic, and broadcaster ... and putting the view of the Church of England, the very late Prebendary Reverend Ross. Gentlemen, is there a life after death or not? Sir Brian? (silence) Professor? ... Prebendary?.... Well there we have it, three say no.
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That wasn't too bad. What the heck happened to King? He seems to have snapped out of his stupidity haze.
 
I think they all answered rationally within the framework of their beliefs. I have no comment on the rationality of the panelists' individual beliefs.

Just curious. I think most people at JREFs subscribe to the philosophy of determinism? For those of you who are determinists, how would you expect most people who are born to families with religious beliefs not to end up with the same beliefs themselves?

Hope this question isn't considered a derail… If it is, feel free to ignore it.

Were those dead panelists in one of the Monty Python movies? Sounds funny! I'd like to watch it.
 
Tricky said:
I was channel surfing last night when I saw something you rarely see on TV. It was Larry King and he had a panel of people discussing the question, "What happens after we die." Much to my surprise, King asked the hard questions, and not at all to my surprise, the theists (one catholic, one protestant, one evangelical, one "spiritual", one Jew and one Muslim) all fumbled it badly. Only the atheist directly and rationally answered the questions.

A lot of what they said has been debated here, but in case anyone is interested, here's the transcript.
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Ooh boy that must have been real tough! ... "When you're dead you're dead." :D

But then again, you could be dead wrong?
 
Shera wrote:
For those of you who are determinists, how would you expect most people who are born to families with religious beliefs not to end up with the same beliefs themselves?
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I don't know if anyone here really expects that. It's just that most people here were in that situation and chose a different path.

"When you're dead you're dead."

But then again, you could be dead wrong?
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No!
 
Shera said:
I think they all answered rationally within the framework of their beliefs. I have no comment on the rationality of the panelists' individual beliefs.
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No, not completely. The evangelical in particular had problems. To counter the theodicy problem, he said that 911, like all evil in the world, came from men. When it was pointed out that the tsuami was in no way caused by men, he had to backtrack. But all of them answered in ways I had heard before, which might fit the framework of their beliefs, but, as you suggest, the beliefs themselves may not be rational.

Shera said:
Just curious. I think most people at JREFs subscribe to the philosophy of determinism? For those of you who are determinists, how would you expect most people who are born to families with religious beliefs not to end up with the same beliefs themselves?
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That question actually came up.
king: I believe most of our faith are faiths of our parents? We didn't go out and study comparative religion, right? Your father was Protestant, I'll bet.

MACARTHUR: Yes. My father was actually a pastor and still alive.

KING: You're Catholic, you're Jewish. You're from Muslims. Mary Ann, what was your father?

WILLIAMSON: I'm Jewish. I'm Jewish. I'm Jewish.

KING: You're Jewish. Ellen, were you raised Jewish, Ellen?

JOHNSON: No, my parents were not religious, of course.

KING: Why of course?

JOHNSON: If the panel at all fits.

KING: They could have been and you could have broken away.

JOHNSON: Because everybody going down the panel there -- if they're religious this, they he had a religious upbringing. I'm an atheist and I was brought up in a nonreligious household.

HATHOUT: However you can be brought up in certain religions, but certain things happen in your life to either confirm or do away with your religion. So, it is not just the box that we are born within.

All of us are exposed to experiences that might make them live the religion or get...

KING: I'm running out of time.

MANNING: One of the most important thins about religion is an encounter with God. It has to be a personal relationship with God. If I'm Muslim, if I'm Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, I encounter the Lord and this is real. And this reality -- no, to the person that experiences God, you can't take this away from me because I've experienced it.
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As you can see, only the atheist (Johnson) directly answered the question, and admitted freely that her upbringing probably had a lot to do with her atheism.

The Catholic was just blubbering nonsense at the end.


Shera said:
Hope this question isn't considered a derail… If it is, feel free to ignore it.
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Not at all, since it was part of the discussion panel, but even if it were a derail, it doesn't matter. I'm not one to insist on POT (Purity of Threads).

Shera said:
Mercutio -- were the dead panelists in one of the Monty Python movies? Sounds funny! I'd like to watch it.
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It's from episode 36 of their BBC series, Monty Python's Flying Circus. A very short bit (naturally).
 
chulbert said:
I think the Rabbi sounded like a pretty reasonable, decent guy.
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Of course, he was working big on the defensive. When the opening volley is that "the Bible says Jews and Muslim aren't getting into heaven," you have to be ready to go.
 
Tricky said:
No, not completely. The evangelical in particular had problems. To counter the theodicy problem, he said that 911, like all evil in the world, came from men. When it was pointed out that the tsuami was in no way caused by men, he had to backtrack.
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Good point, I missed that. I actually felt that the rabbi handled the theodicy problem the best. That may be a side-effect of the fact that at around the time the religion's literature was being redacted the Jewish people have already been on the losing end of at least two major wars (Babylonians and later the Romans).

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/timeline.html

That question [determinism]actually came up

As you can see, only the atheist (Johnson) directly answered the question, and admitted freely that her upbringing probably had a lot to do with her atheism.

The Catholic was just blubbering nonsense at the end.
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Yeah I saw that.

What I was trying to get at though, was that most people are not going to be able to question the rationality of the belief system they were raised in for many reasons. Even if they do get to the point where they can question it privately, they may not go on to challenge it publicly because it would be too difficult to do so and still get along well with their family and community.

And yeah, I'm basing that on some anecdotal evidence -- mostly a few conversations with orthodox Jews (mostly women) after I decided to stop being orthodox.

It's from episode 36 of their BBC series, Monty Python's Flying Circus. A very short bit (naturally).
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Great web site! Further up I found some stuff from Woody Allen and Groucho Marx too. Thanks!
 
pgwenthold said:
Of course, he was working big on the defensive. When the opening volley is that "the Bible says Jews and Muslim aren't getting into heaven," you have to be ready to go.
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One of my co-workers gets the Washington Times, very is owned by the Moonies and it shows. They had a front page article about how liberals have misread Thomas's letters on seporation of church and state.

I wonder how long it's going to be before people realize that seporation of church and state is good not ideal, not just to protect secularist from religious laws but other denominations and religions from each other.

I don't think the Protestants would be happy if the laws of the country were being based purely on Catholic theology and vice-versa.
 
IllegalArgument said:
One of my co-workers gets the Washington Times, very is owned by the Moonies and it shows. They had a front page article about how liberals have misread Thomas's letters on seporation of church and state.

I wonder how long it's going to be before people realize that seporation of church and state is good not ideal, not just to protect secularist from religious laws but other denominations and religions from each other.

I don't think the Protestants would be happy if the laws of the country were being based purely on Catholic theology and vice-versa.
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I always like to point out that a lot of the "prayer in school" suits that have been filed were christian against christian. The recent one in Texas with the Texas football game thing was Mormons and Catholics v Baptists. They had objected because the prayer leader was elected by a vote, and they were in the minority at the school, so they never got to say the prayers they wanted.

So they sued the school, figuring if we can't say the prayers, then they can't either.

A great example of the power of the separation of church and state.
 
I watched the show 1 1/2 times last night. (1/2 live...then waited up for and watched the entire repeat airing late last night.)

All I am going to say is that I smiled while watching it last night. My mom and dad (deeply religious) were watching I'm sure.

I reserve comment as I do not want to go to hell.:D

Carry on.
 
pgwenthold said:
I always like to point out that a lot of the "prayer in school" suits that have been filed were christian against christian. The recent one in Texas with the Texas football game thing was Mormons and Catholics v Baptists. They had objected because the prayer leader was elected by a vote, and they were in the minority at the school, so they never got to say the prayers they wanted.

So they sued the school, figuring if we can't say the prayers, then they can't either.

A great example of the power of the separation of church and state.
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If I remember correctly the original pray cases were filed by Jewish families, which lead to ban on school pray. It was O'Hair picked them up and pushed them all to the Supreme Court. Please, correct me if I got this wrong.
 
IllegalArgument said:
If I remember correctly the original pray cases were filed by Jewish families, which lead to ban on school pray. It was O'Hair picked them up and pushed them all to the Supreme Court. Please, correct me if I got this wrong.
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I think that is correct, although OHair that gets the publicity for it. But I do believe that the original cases were filed by religious folk.
 
Larry always struck me as pretty loopy. His closing statement gave me a chuckle:

KING: I'll close with the words from "Fiddler on the Roof" "to life, to life lachaim." Lachaim, lachaim to life.



He also indicated that he will have more shows devoted to this topic, I guess with his age and heart problems he's getting a tad concerned?
 
At least the Rabbi will let atheists into heaven. As usual, I found the fundamentalist preacher most disturbing. You can do anything you want and get into heaven as long as you proclaim your faith in Jesus.

This reminds my of the "Life of Brian" when they are waiting in line to get crucified..

"Crucifixion?"

"Yes"

"Crucifixion?"

"Yes"

"Crucifixion?"

Eric Idol, "I just received a pardon from the governor"

just imagine waiting at the pearly gates

"Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?"
"No"

"Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?"
"No"

"Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?"
"No"

"Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?"
"Yes"
 
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