Six Reason to Question Vaccinations

[grayman]

I found this "Alternative Doctor" site and thought I'd share a little of what I found.

What caught my attention was the title, "Six Reasons to Question Vaccinations". Here they are:

1. Vaccinations are forced. For example, there are compulsory vaccination laws in every state. If something is good it doesn't have to be forced.
2. Vaccinations are toxins by definition.
3. Vaccinations are indigenous to only one model of healthcare--the allopathic medical model--and its practitioner's particular understanding of disease phenomena.
4. Vaccinations are promoted by fear, guilt, and 'creative' statistics.
5. Vaccinations are represented as safe and effective when evidence suggests they are neither.
6. Vaccinations are aggressively pushed by public health departments and other government agencies as though they were a public health issue when they are not. This is done to insure a high rate of compliance.

The site also has "Ten Reasons to Just Say 'No' to Vaccinations".

1. Vaccinations are toxins by definition.
2. Vaccinations are aggressively promoted by those who have a financial stake in their consumption.
3. Vaccinations are promoted using fear, intimidation, and coercion.
4. Vaccinations are big business.
5. Vaccine manufacturers are nearly liability proof for their products.
6. Vaccinations are not only forced upon us, but those who deny us the exercise of our free will refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
7. Evidence suggests that vaccinations damage the immune system, the nervous system and the spirit-mind-body connection.
8. Compulsory vaccinations ignore biochemical and psychospiritual individuality.
9. Vaccinations are misrepresented by government agencies as a public health issue which they are not.
10. Vaccinations are heavily subsidized, heavily propagandized and can be seen as a wake-up call for us to see how we allow ourselves to be programmed by huge vested interests.

In no way do I promote this. I merely posted it to invite comment and debate.

I notice that they are using "fear, intimidation, and coercion" of #3 to sell their alternative medicine as well. After all, vaccines are a product of the EVIL "Big Business".

They are using the passive voice with #7 in my opinion. What evidence do they speak of?

I'm not sure what psychospiritual individuality is. But obviously big pharma is out to destroy it.

 

[geni]

1. Vaccinations are forced. For example, there are compulsory vaccination laws in every state. If something is good it doesn't have to be forced.

Various court ordered adiction programs suggests otherwise.

2. Vaccinations are toxins by definition.

So is water

3. Vaccinations are indigenous to only one model of healthcare--the allopathic medical model--and its practitioner's particular understanding of disease phenomena.

Irrelivant and not actualy true.

Orginaly homeopathy accepted vaccination and Smallpox vaccination was worked out before viruses became part of the standard medical model.

4. Vaccinations are promoted by fear, guilt, and 'creative' statistics.

The anti-vacc cause more so.

5. Vaccinations are represented as safe and effective when evidence suggests they are neither.

They are safer and more effective than the alturnative.

6. Vaccinations are aggressively pushed by public health departments and other government agencies as though they were a public health issue when they are not. This is done to insure a high rate of compliance.

They are a public health issue.

 

[Pyrts]

These sites ignore the data from countries where there's no or little immunization and also ignores data from military brats/diplomats' children/missionaries' children. We got shots every time we turned around, were exposed to all sorts of things.

I knew hundreds of military kids. You can still find millions of us around. We don't seem to have suffered those effects that they're concerned about. You can also look at the kids in the countries where we were stationed who did NOT receive vaccinations and see the relative mortality and morbidity rates.

 

[geni]

1. Vaccinations are toxins by definition.

So is oxygen.

2. Vaccinations are aggressively promoted by those who have a financial stake in their consumption.

And the NHS which doesn't

3. Vaccinations are promoted using fear, intimidation, and coercion.

Not really.

4. Vaccinations are big business.

So what?

7. Evidence suggests that vaccinations damage the immune system, the nervous system and the spirit-mind-body connection.

No idea about the last one but we checked the first two and found zilch.

8. Compulsory vaccinations ignore biochemical and psychospiritual individuality.

Mostly because they are not really relivant. The human immune responce is pretty universal. Obviously those cases where it is not are delt with differently.

10. Vaccinations are heavily subsidized, heavily propagandized and can be seen as a wake-up call for us to see how we allow ourselves to be programmed by huge vested interests.

There is a world outside the US you know.

 

[krazyKemist]

1. Vaccinations are toxins by definition.

Anybody who talks about 'toxins' willy-nilly is, by definition, a quack.

2. Vaccinations are aggressively promoted by those who have a financial stake in their consumption.

huhhh... Says who ? What about 'vitamins and supplements are agressively promoted by those who have a financial stake in their consumption' (even though you can find them much cheaper in ordinary food) ?

3. Vaccinations are promoted using fear, intimidation, and coercion.
4. Vaccinations are big business.

Wow... Still nothing there to make me think anything about vaccination itself. So, Big Business = Bad, Small Business = Good ? Should we talk about working conditions in small businesses then ? No ? I thought not...

5. Vaccine manufacturers are nearly liability proof for their products.
6. Vaccinations are not only forced upon us, but those who deny us the exercise of our free will refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

6 points down and still actually nothing about vaccination... Liability-proofness is sign of something eviiiill ? Check how easy it is to sue a government then.

How can you decide something if you don't actually understand anything true about it ? Let's self-diagnose and treat our cancers people ! Let's vote to decide if you're HIV positive or not ! I'm sure we'll do better than this guy who's got over ten years study and practice of medicine.

7. Evidence suggests that vaccinations damage the immune system, the nervous system and the spirit-mind-body connection.

The mind-body connection ? What's that ? Well that's another quack word, that is... They also love to rant about the immune system... If you want to see something funny, just go to a health store asking about cells of the actual immune system, like the difference between lymphoid and myeloid lines... Enjoy !

8. Compulsory vaccinations ignore biochemical and psychospiritual individuality

Oh noes ! Somebody has puts toxins into my psychospiritual thingy ! Well, lets hear that beattles record backwards wearing banana skins on my feet and recitate a couple mantras, that should cures it !

9. Vaccinations are misrepresented by government agencies as a public health issue which they are not.

Ah really ? Let's see... If a bunch of parents don't vaccinate, that means... uhhh, that a bunch of kids ain't immune, right ? If a bunch of kids ain't immune, that means, uhh, that a disease can spread easier, noes ? Huhh, what does 'public health' mean again ?

10. Vaccinations are heavily subsidized, heavily propagandized and can be seen as a wake-up call for us to see how we allow ourselves to be programmed by huge vested interests.

Repetition of the Eviiiiils of Big Pharma, again. Big deal. Why do they see fit to repeat the same point over and over again ? Well maybe if you repeat it often enough, that will make it true.

Conclusion : they have nothing. Just vague accusations against Eviiiil Big Pharma of which most have no relation as to the efficacy and safety of vaccination. Quacky garbage, smells hundred of miles away.

the Kemist

 

[Kaylee]

Orginaly homeopathy accepted vaccination and Smallpox vaccination was worked out before viruses became part of the standard medical model.

Yes, vacinnations seems to fit in with their "law of similars" and the founder of homeopathy, Hahnemann, used the smallpox vaccination as an example of why his model of medicine was correct.

I just found this on the net. I'm not sure if this web site actually reflects "the homeopathic view" but if it does, it looks like we can blame Burnett, a homeopathic practitioner in the late 19th century, for putting homeopathy on the track to reject vacinnations. Pertinant info is on the last half of the web page. Here are some of his assertions:

1. Vaccination protection results in a decrease in the number of people catching the disease state (morbidity rate), but does not really change the rate at which people die from it (mortality rate). He argued this was due to the fact that the vaccination, which was a weaker form of the disease, only protected people who had a low susceptibility to the disease state and did not really protect those who were very susceptible.
2. Vaccination protection varies over time and according to dose. This means that epidemics will still occur with regularity.
3. Vaccination is not homeopathy because homeopathy is a system of cure, not prevention, but that vaccination does operate on the principle of similars and, thus, can be more properly called "homeoprophylaxis."
4. Vaccination as practiced by Pasteur and Jenner, using material doses, will eventually end in disaster because it is temporary protection, does not individualize the dose, and brings long-term chronic consequences. Also, it will actually increase the mortality rate because in addition to the vaccinosis, if the person also catches the disease the prophylaxis was intended to prevent, he is more likely to die than if he had just caught the disease without the vaccination.

History has proved him wrong. When was the last time anyone had polio?

Homeopathy is not evidence based medicine. That being the case, there is no reason to pay attention to anything they have to say. I personally think that their only value lies in the historical and psychological areas.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

These sites ignore the data from countries where there's no or little immunization ....

Oh they rationalize that data claiming it is poor sanitation and poor diets which cause the diseases rather than lack of vaccinations. Supposedly diseases with high fatality rates are mild if you are otherwise healthy. And that, of course is false.

Those of us who promote critical thinking have an uphill battle overcoming the distrust of actual scientific research in favor of twisted rationales and logic.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Are you sure this is a real site? Sounds like a parody of bad logic from other places. Wow, some people.

 

[Zep]

Evil Big Pharma

Oops!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Besides the obvious unsubstantiated claims such as vaccines are not a public health issue, , here is a response to a couple of the claims.

1. Vaccinations are toxins by definition.

This is not true. Some vaccines are based on antigens which are toxins produced by the organism, but antigens (which produce an antibody response) are not all toxins.

Toxin

A poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced by living cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when introduced into the body tissues but is often also capable of inducing neutralizing antibodies or antitoxins.

...Toxoids are toxins that have been exposed to formaldehyde or other chemicals that destroy their toxicities without impairing immunogenicity. When injected into humans, toxoids elicit specific antibodies known as antitoxins that neutralize circulating toxins. Such immunization (vaccination) is very effective for systemic toxinoses, such as diphtheria and tetanus.

Antigen

A substance that when introduced into the body stimulates the production of an antibody. Antigens include toxins, bacteria, foreign blood cells, and the cells of transplanted organs.

5. Vaccine manufacturers are nearly liability proof for their products.

Again, completely untrue. An excise tax is added to the cost of all vaccines which provides specific vaccine liability insurance so to speak. And if the compensation is rejected by the injured party or if the injury is not covered, the victim can still sue the vaccine manufacturer.

About the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

The VICP is a program designed to encourage childhood vaccination by providing a streamlined system for compensation in rare instances where an injury results from vaccination.

Over the past 12 years, the VICP has succeeded in providing a less adversarial, less expensive and less time-consuming system of recovery than the traditional tort system that governs medical malpractice, personal injury and product liability cases. More than 1,500 people have been paid in excess of $1.18 billion since the inception of the program in 1988.

Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund

The Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund (Trust Fund) provides funding for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) to compensate vaccine-related injury or death claims for covered vaccines administered on or after October 1, 1988. The Trust Fund is funded by a $0.75 excise tax on each dose of vaccine purchased (i.e., each disease prevented in a dose of vaccine). ...

The Department of Treasury collects the excise taxes, and oversees and manages the investing activities for the Trust Fund. As of January 31, 2007, the Trust Fund balance was nearly $2.5 billion. The Trust Fund monthly reports are available on the Treasury’s Bureau of Public Debt Website.

You can still file a claim for "contaminants or adulterants". Preservatives, adjuvants and buffers are not considered predervatives or adulterants.

Under what circumstances may a vaccine administrator or vaccine company be sued?

1. If the petition has been judged non-compensable or dismissed under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP); or
2. If the award granted by the VICP is otherwise rejected by the petitioner; or
3. If the vaccine is not covered under the VICP.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Nobody, nowhere, nohow is disfigured or killed by smallpox on the entire planet anymore,

It was completely and utterly eliminated by vaccination.

Piss on all the stupid altmed idiots.

 

[RichardR]

I found this "Alternative Doctor" site

Well, that site certainly was an alternative to anything any real doctor would tell you. You have to admire their candor if nothing else.

 

[Merko]

Vaccinations are forced. For example, there are compulsory vaccination laws in every state. If something is good it doesn't have to be forced.

This may possibly be a convincing argument for the ignorant. Governments forcing substances into the blood streams of children should be a cause of concern. The hidden argument here seems to go: "Why don't they just let the stupid people suffer and die?"

That argument could be countered, saying that people don't deserve to suffer and die just because they are stupid, and that children especially don't deserve to suffer and die because their parents are stupid. However, the argument misses the real reason for why vaccinations are compulsory: Otherwise it doesn't work. Vaccinations are not merely meant to protect the individual. If only 75% of the population are vaccinated, many diseases can still become epidemic, and at that point those who are vaccinated may no longer be sufficiently protected (most vaccines don't work 100%).

 

[Schneibster]

Those of us who promote critical thinking have an uphill battle overcoming the distrust of actual scientific research in favor of twisted rationales and logic.

This seems to be a common theme across quite a few different disciplines that contradict emotionally based judgments of how the world ought to work.

Our emotional judgment is pretty good for figuring out what to do quickly when an emergency presents itself; but apparently much less effective at figuring out how things work and what actions we should take for our own best benefit at leisure. We tend to ascribe complex phenomena incorrectly to simple causes. Reasoning by association rather than provable cause to effect is common, thus the common statement that correlation is not causation.

Critical thinking requires that we look beyond the obvious correlation, the simple judgment, to see whether underlying phenomena agree with the obvious, and we must be prepared to reject the simple explanation that is wrong when these underlying phenomena show that there is more going on than we thought. Because these simple explanations are emotionally satisfying, this can be difficult, and if such critical examination is not taught early in childhood, this can lead to a bias toward these simple explanations rather than toward the outcome of the satisfaction of our natural inquisitiveness. This bias can even lead to outright denial of obvious reality; examples abound.

I think that the only solution to this is to teach children early to question, inquire, examine, and think. We are equipped to do these things; what we must do is avoid allowing the superficially satisfying emotional judgment to hold sway, and be willing to defer satisfaction in order to obtain the deeper, more lasting satisfaction that comes with detailed knowledge of how things really work.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

I think that the only solution to this is to teach children early to question, inquire, examine, and think. We are equipped to do these things; what we must do is avoid allowing the superficially satisfying emotional judgment to hold sway, and be willing to defer satisfaction in order to obtain the deeper, more lasting satisfaction that comes with detailed knowledge of how things really work.

Great idea. Two problems that spring to mind:

1) How do you think religious parents are going to like it when their children come home from school and start asking all the wrong questions?

2) Even more importantly, what politician is going to want an electorate that thinks critically?

 

[eir_de_scania]

Are you sure this is a real site? Sounds like a parody of bad logic from other places. Wow, some people.

Unfortunately, no. No parody can live up to the Real Thing, I'm afraid.

 

[Muppet]

Great idea. Two problems that spring to mind:

1) How do you think religious parents are going to like it when their children come home from school and start asking all the wrong questions?

2) Even more importantly, what politician is going to want an electorate that thinks critically?

1) They probably don't like it, obviously

2) I'm guessing the good honest ones? There have been a couple of those throughout history.

 

[Hellbound]

1. Vaccinations are forced. For example, there are compulsory vaccination laws in every state. If something is good it doesn't have to be forced.

Which explains laws against murder, speed limits, taxes that support various public works like roads, education, and research, mandatory attendence at schools and colleges, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

2. Vaccinations are toxins by definition.

I'd question this. Dunno if I'd consider it a toxin, but I ge thte point anyway. Of course, almost anything you take is a toxin, and site unseen I can garauntee (and wager to whatever level anyone is willing) that some of the alternative remedies the person offers are also things that would be considered or that contain toxins. Things like, oh, apples, for example.

3. Vaccinations are indigenous to only one model of healthcare--the allopathic medical model--and its practitioner's particular understanding of disease phenomena.

This is true. However, this is not a bad thing. No other model of health care has shown any results that even come close to approaching medicene based on scientific principles (what woos call allopathic).

4. Vaccinations are promoted by fear, guilt, and 'creative' statistics.

In some cases, yes. This is primarily because theres such an abundance oh fear, guilt, creative statistics, flat out lies, deceptions, scams, self-serving mis-information, and general BS pumped out by non-allopathic practitioners who don;t understand what they're decrying even as they advise their patients against it.

5. Vaccinations are represented as safe and effective when evidence suggests they are neither.

Flat-out lie. In general, vaccinations are safe and effective. In specifics, vaccination safety and efficacy vary from vaccine to vaccine. With a few exceptions, mandatory vaccines are those with a very good risk-to-benefit ratio...those that could fairly be classed as safe and effective. Evidence of side-effects is primarily self-reported, which introduces a HUGE bias towards over-reporting of side effects...even at these levels the number of adverse incidents is very low.

6. Vaccinations are aggressively pushed by public health departments and other government agencies as though they were a public health issue when they are not. This is done to insure a high rate of compliance.

Half-right. They are pushed for compliance. But they ARE a public health issue. Smallpox, polio, and several other vaccination records show remarkable correllation between the introduction of mandatory vaccination and the reduction of disease instances in the population. And vice-versa. When one factors in that congregation is mandatory to a degree (there are places people are forced to interact, such as schools), it is a public health issue.

1. Vaccinations are toxins by definition.

Covered above.

2. Vaccinations are aggressively promoted by those who have a financial stake in their consumption.

Isn't this on a site if a person selling their advise and/or alternative treatments? In any case, vaccinations are also aggressively promoted by those who don't have a financial stake. Regardless, this doesn't address their effectiveness...just a bit of ad hominem...or maybe poisoning the well.

3. Vaccinations are promoted using fear, intimidation, and coercion.

"Vaccines will kill you and give you kids autism. You're a bad person and a bad parent if you vaccinate. It's an evil conspiracy!"

Wait, who is using fear, intimidation, and coercion again?

4. Vaccinations are big business.

So's alt-med. Again, doesn't address the effectiveness.

5. Vaccine manufacturers are nearly liability proof for their products.

Ah, yes and no. If they were negligent in the manufacture and caused safety and health issues, you better believe they are liable. Existing vaccines are VERY well tested. Their nearly liability proof against false claims such as are on this web site, but not legitimate problems or issues.

6. Vaccinations are not only forced upon us, but those who deny us the exercise of our free will refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Wtf? The only thing I can make out of this is that she's saying "Because you don't believe my wild claims about vaccines causing global warming and the heat death of the universe, you aren't taking respinsibility!" Bit of a circular argument.

7. Evidence suggests that vaccinations damage the immune system, the nervous system and the spirit-mind-body connection.

I'd like to see evidence of a spirit-mind-body connection, first. OR of a spirit, period.

8. Compulsory vaccinations ignore biochemical and psychospiritual individuality.

Uh, cheeseburger?

9. Vaccinations are misrepresented by government agencies as a public health issue which they are not.

Again, this seems to presume it's conclusion. If vaccines are safe and effective, as advertised, then they are a pu8blic health issue. Heck, for that matter, even if this person is right it's a public health issue 9just the other direction). Nonsense statement.

10. Vaccinations are heavily subsidized, heavily propagandized and can be seen as a wake-up call for us to see how we allow ourselves to be programmed by huge vested interests.

Alternative medicine is heavily supported, heavily propogandized and can be seen as a wake-up call for us to see how we allow ourselves to be programmed by vested interests. Hey, this is fun!

 

[Pyrts]

I think that the scarier part of this whole issue is that many of these parents would completely accept the "disease party/contageous party" paradigm of keeping children healthy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/479171.stm

And while they're at it, maybe they should break a few of the kids' bones to prevent them from getting broken bones later in life?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I gave a hepatitis B vaccination today and the recipient was incredibly anxious, not because of a needle phobia, but because she was afraid the vaccine was dangerous. This is a woman who wanted the vaccine. She is a student in an acupuncture and oriental medicine college. The students pay for their own vaccinations. No one makes them get the shots.

I was amazed at the anxiety she had over getting the vaccine.

She ended up getting the shot and was not anxious an hour later when I saw her again. To fear a vaccine as a risky thing to get is mind boggling to me.