Sigh...the polygamist is right.

[Andonyx]

Well, there could certainly be better poster children for religious freedoms, but this dude is ultimately right, at least I think so...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/12/08/polygamy.appeal.ap/index.html

But she doesn't want him teaching their 10-year-old daughter, Kaylynne, about the practice or exposing her to it in any way. She's won her point in a lower court but now her ex-husband, Stanley M. Shepp, has taken the case to the state Supreme Court.

"Religious discussion in the home between a parent and a child has got to be the most sacred freedom-of-speech issue ever," Shepp said.

Counters Roberts: "It's not an organized religion -- it's in his mind. Polygamy's illegal everyplace, and it's illegal for a whole lot of reasons."

Frankly, I'm no fan of polygamy, but I agree with the guy's quote that he has every right in the world to discuss it with his daughter.

And I find the mother's reasoning completely lacking. Illegal or otherwise, is it actually organization and numbers as well as congressional blessing that give a faith its legitimacy? I thought it was supposed to be about the big man, right?

I don't believe in any of it frankly, but I still think one guy singing weirdo songs to his purple lizard God in his bedroom is just as legitimate a religious practice as Sunday morning in Church.

Now as for weather or not Polygamy should or should not be legal as a marriage situation....well, that's a whole separate issue, but if the guy can run up and down the street wearing a sandwhich sign about it, (which I think he still can in the US) then he can sure as hell play polygamy advocate to his kids.

Even if it's gross.

 

[Glory]

That's a tough one but I think the key is in the custody agreement. It states that the girl would be raised in the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That institution does not practice polygamy and ecommunicates any member that does. Therefore, if he educates her on his beliefs about polygamy, he is not honouring the custody agreement. It is no different than if he decided to start educating her on Catholicsm or Judaism.

While I am uncomfortable with the notion that communication between father and daughter shouldn't be protected, communication regarding sacred, religious beliefs constitutes religious guidance which is part of the practice of that religion. This girl's religion is Morman according to a written agreement between both parents which is enforced by the court. Morman's don't do ploygamy any more.

Glory

 

[arcticpenguin]

Glory,

He is not (so far as I know) going to force his daughter into practicing polygamy. He is just going to explain his beliefs on the matter to her. The Mormon church does not require that its members close their ears to the lifestyles of others, so this would not violate an agreement that be raised in hte Mormon faith.

 

[Glory]

Glory,

He is not (so far as I know) going to force his daughter into practicing polygamy. He is just going to explain his beliefs on the matter to her. The Mormon church does not require that its members close their ears to the lifestyles of others, so this would not violate an agreement that be raised in hte Mormon faith.

Okay, what would be the purpose of his explaining these beliefs other than to influence her beliefs?

Glory

 

[Otther]

So he can explain to her why he believes in something that makes everyone else call him an immoral person?

 

[Nasarius]

So he can explain to her why he believes in something that makes everyone else call him an immoral person?

Okay okay, I don't want to start another incest thread, but why do you feel that polygamy is immoral? It's a legal mess, sure, but what's "wrong" about such an agreement between adults?

Anyone, feel free to answer this.

 

[Otther]

Well... when I said "everyone else" I was really refering to the majority of people, as it's doubtful that anyone in this girl's life is going to take a stance to defend her father.

While I would never want to enter a polygamous relationship (much less a marriage), I do believe that it is wrong for this to be illegal. Sure... in my eyes the morality of it is iffy, but I don't want to impose my subjective opinions on anyone. It's obviously unconstitutional that the practice be illegal, but then that's really just a drop in the bucket.


In a perfect world the goverment would merely offer civil unions to any parties wishing to engage in one. If people want to call themselves married they should have to find a church that will marry them.

 

[Glory]

So he can explain to her why he believes in something that makes everyone else call him an immoral person?

There is no evidence that anyone is calling him that or that she knows about it if they are.

The sticky question on my mind is can a father tell his children what he believes without influencing their beliefs by that act?

Glory

 

[nightwind]

Polygamy

Well, exactly what is the basis for polygamy being against the law? Have there been some kind of studies on this, etc?
There is probably a very good chance that there is no real harm.
There are laws on the books that are just there probably because someone just thinks them morally wrong, when in actuality there may not be any real harm.

I really can't think of any real downside to polygamy, unless it drains the pool of prospective mates for others. I know other countries practice this all of the time. Wonder what negatives they see, if any?

Since we allow freedom of religion, and if this is part of someone's religious belief, they should be allowed to practice polygamy. As long as it is not infringing on the rights of others and all parties agree, then what's the big deal?

 

[Hexxenhammer]

Re: Polygamy

Well, exactly what is the basis for polygamy being against the law? Have there been some kind of studies on this, etc?
There is probably a very good chance that there is no real harm.
There are laws on the books that are just there probably because someone just thinks them morally wrong, when in actuality there may not be any real harm.

I'll post here what I posted in the other thread on this:

Polygamy as it is practiced by mormon fundamentalists IS harmful. Welfare fraud is rampant (all those "single" unemployed mothers living with their spiritual husbands), pedophilia is pervasive, the young spiritual brides often have no choice in the matter. In fact, men oftentimes end up marrying their step-daughters if one of their wives has childeren from a previous marriage.

I'm not saying polygamy couldn't be practiced by consenting adults, say as it is in some Heinlein novels, but by and large it's practiced by mormon-fundie wack-jobs who shouldn't be allowed to teach their daughters to be subservient slaves who should marry when they're thirteen.

The mother should sue for full custody to make sure this nut doesn't brainwash his kid.

 

[Hexxenhammer]

Okay okay, I don't want to start another incest thread, but why do you feel that polygamy is immoral? It's a legal mess, sure, but what's "wrong" about such an agreement between adults?

Anyone, feel free to answer this.

The style of polygamy that this man believes in has nothing to do with either being consenting or being adults. Mormon fundie polygamists marry teenage girls who have little to no choice in the matter.

I don't think you're going to find many people in the US who practice a Heineinian (is that a word?) egalitarian polygamy.

So when you talk about polygamy in the US, you're talking about Mormon polygamy which I think is immoral (see post above).

 

[headscratcher4]

Re: Re: Polygamy

I'll post here what I posted in the other thread on this:

Polygamy as it is practiced by mormon fundamentalists IS harmful. Welfare fraud is rampant (all those "single" unemployed mothers living with their spiritual husbands), pedophilia is pervasive, the young spiritual brides often have no choice in the matter. In fact, men oftentimes end up marrying their step-daughters if one of their wives has childeren from a previous marriage.

I'm not saying polygamy couldn't be practiced by consenting adults, say as it is in some Heinlein novels, but by and large it's practiced by mormon-fundie wack-jobs who shouldn't be allowed to teach their daughters to be subservient slaves who should marry when they're thirteen.

The mother should sue for full custody to make sure this nut doesn't brainwash his kid.

Exactly. Read the Krackahuer (sp?) book....most of these fundumentalist "polygamists" are "marrying" underage women (often nieces and other close relatives. Physical force, rape and other abuse is rampent. Choice is not.

Maybe there is "consenting" polygamy out there, but the fundumentalist Mormons aren't talking about it, or practicing it.

 

[daenku32]

If the polygamist must lose his right to talk to his kid, make sure it's because of message to "Physical force, rape and other abuse."

NOT just because of some silly title.

There is nothing illegal about living with bunch of women and impregnating them all.

 

[headscratcher4]

If the polygamist must lose his right to talk to his kid, make sure it's because of message to "Physical force, rape and other abuse."

NOT just because of some silly title.

There is nothing illegal about living with bunch of women and impregnating them all.

Really don't disagree...but given the history here, it seems to me that the polygamists have a pretty high burden of showing that minors are not being coersed.