Should we mourn people like Nick Berg?

[EGarrett]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4986619/

I don't see a topic for this.

What happened to him was horrible...but for god's sake...what the heck was he doing in Iraq when he didn't have to be? The FBI even STRONGLY advised him to leave and he said no. So, is it so tragic and shocking that the man got his head sawed off by Iraqi extremists?

It's like a child who ignores his parents warnings to stop playing in the middle of the highway during rush hour, then we have to be so shocked and teary that he got run over.

My deepest condolences go out to the Berg family...but Nick basically brought this on himself.

And let me also add that THIS is the reason the U.S. soldiers who tormented the Iraqi prisoners should be thrown out of the army. They're escalating this situation to an even more sick level, and all captured Americans will probably end up being tortured to death from now on. All because of some stupid "frat prank" that they had no business doing. Thanks, idiots, you've caused untold agony to hundreds of your countrymen now and in the future.

 

[varwoche]

So, people make mistakes.

That doesn't make it somehow misguided to mourn that an innocent person was brutally murdered.

 

[tamiO]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4986619/

I don't see a topic for this.

What happened to him was horrible...but for god's sake...what the heck was he doing in Iraq when he didn't have to be? The FBI even STRONGLY advised him to leave and he said no. So, is it so tragic and shocking that the man got his head sawed off by Iraqi extremists?

Before they started smearing his name on the TV news, they were telling us that he had done this type of thing before. He had gone to Africa, for instance, to help set up power and lend his skills.

His former clients have come forward to say he was a great guy that cared too much and only saw the good in people. So maybe he was naive, but he is a hero in my book. The Al-Queada killed one of the best friends to the Iraqi people.

 

[Corwyn]

lets stop the hero worship

Lets, NOT go too overboard here.
What happened to Nick Burg is horrific. In an ideal world the people who commited this act will be punished for it ( though I really, sadly, do not think that that will happen)

While Mr. Burg might have genuinly been a nice person who cared about the people of Iraq, he WAS a businessman and he wasn't there just to be nice!

He saw an opportunity to make a profit ( and maybe to him as an added bonus, he could help people who needed it).

Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with that! But if he had any sense he assessed the risk and the potential of being killed in the middle of a war HAD to have been considered. He chose to take the risk! If he had died stepping on a land mine, being mugged by an Iraqy, or fell off one of his towers we would not be sitting here talking about this! BUT he would still be dead! Only to the living does the maner of his death is of any consequence.
To call him a hero is just as dissengeniuos as saying he got what he deserved.

C

 

[Mycroft]

Re: lets stop the hero worship

Originally posted by Corwyn
Lets, NOT go too overboard here.
What happened to Nick Burg is horrific. In an ideal world the people who commited this act will be punished for it ( though I really, sadly, do not think that that will happen)

While Mr. Burg might have genuinly been a nice person who cared about the people of Iraq, he WAS a businessman and he wasn't there just to be nice!

He saw an opportunity to make a profit ( and maybe to him as an added bonus, he could help people who needed it).

Here you’re saying his primary motivation was money, and helping people may have been a secondary motivation. What’s your source for that? Did you read that somewhere? Or are you just projecting onto him what your motivations would have been?

Everybody has to do something for a living. Some people, smart people, choose to do things they enjoy for a living, and the paycheck is secondary. People who become teachers, firemen, police officers, social workers and so forth are generally people who qualify for positions of higher pay, but choose to work these fields for the reward of helping people. Also, there are people who work in fields that are not traditionally associated with helping the needy, but who find ways to apply their skills in ways that may not be as profitable, but that help people that need it the most.

Here we have a little bit of biographical information on Nick Berg that reveals something about his character:

He once traveled to Ghana to help a village, by among other things teaching villagers how to make bricks. He returned in an emaciated state because he gave away most of his food and clothes.

In my opinion, someone who goes to Ghana and returns emaciated because he gave away his food and clothes is not likely to be a person who’s primary motivation is money.

Originally posted by Corwyn
Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!

I agree, yet it’s disingenuous to say that there is nothing wrong with making money, yet to take the assumption that he was making money as proof that it was his primary motivation, and that helping people was secondary.

Originally posted by Corwyn
But if he had any sense he assessed the risk and the potential of being killed in the middle of a war HAD to have been considered. He chose to take the risk!

This is what they call blaming the victim. Everybody that ever suffers any misfortune could be said to have avoided that misfortune if they had made different choices. Nick Berg made a choice to help people despite the obvious risks, this made him more of a hero, not less.

Originally posted by Corwyn
If he had died stepping on a land mine, being mugged by an Iraqy, or fell off one of his towers we would not be sitting here talking about this! BUT he would still be dead! Only to the living does the maner of his death is of any consequence.

He did not die by stepping on a land mine, being mugged or falling off a tower. You are correct in pointing out that the manner of his death only matters to the living, I will point out that we are the living who are discussing it. Yes, it does matter to us, and rightly so.

Originally posted by Corwyn
To call him a hero is just as dissengeniuos as saying he got what he deserved.

Someone who places himself at risk for the benefit of others is in my opinion a hero. What is your definition?

 

[EGarrett]

Re: Re: Should we mourn people like Nick Berg?

His former clients have come forward to say he was a great guy that cared too much and only saw the good in people. So maybe he was naive, but he is a hero in my book. The Al-Queada killed one of the best friends to the Iraqi people.

Originally posted by Mycroft
Someone who places himself at risk for the benefit of others is in my opinion a hero. What is your definition?

I'd define a hero as someone who's qualities or actions should be emulated by others. What Berg did is a textbook definition of foolhardiness as far as I'm concerned. And the consequences were clear. There's no way I'd advise anyone else to think the way he thought or be so brash. Thus he's no hero at all in my eyes.

This is what they call blaming the victim. Everybody that ever suffers any misfortune could be said to have avoided that misfortune if they had made different choices. Nick Berg made a choice to help people despite the obvious risks, this made him more of a hero, not less.

Come on, now. Everybody who suffers a misfortune could have done something differently...but for the most part they had no way of knowing what was going to happen. Mr. Berg knowingly threw himself into harm's way by flying over to that country, and then ignored the FBI's strong advice to him to leave.

Would you call blaming the victim if someone put a loaded gun to their head and pulled the trigger? Where do you draw the line of responsibility?

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

And let me also add that THIS is the reason the U.S. soldiers who tormented the Iraqi prisoners should be thrown out of the army...

My read on it is that the prison torture connection is an opportunistic propaganda pretext.

It's pretty obvious (at least to me) that Berg was executed because he was trying to contact Al-Qaeda, and Al-Qaeda didn't wish to be contacted.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Re: Re: Re: Should we mourn people like Nick Berg?

I'd define a hero as someone who's qualities or actions should be emulated by others. What Berg did is a textbook definition of foolhardiness as far as I'm concerned. And the consequences were clear. There's no way I'd advise anyone else to think the way he thought or be so brash. Thus he's no hero at all in my eyes.

Well, here we get into definitions of 'hero' and 'foolhardy', don't we? Most of the time the media refers to one as a hero when they survive the undertaking ('the man, 24, father of two, from the Western Suburbs of Sydney, was hailed as a hero when ran into the blazing house to rescue the 64 year old man who is now in a serious condition'); whereas you become foolhardy if you don't ('the man, 24, father of two, from the Western Suburbs of Sydney, was described as foolhardy by a police spokesman today as he died attempting to rescue a 64 year old man from a blazing house. "You don't help others by placing yourself in danger,' the police spokesman solemnly warned.').

And here we see it in action in this war. Thomas Hamil, contracter, paid $1500/day, captured and escaped- HERO. Nick Berg, contracter, paid unknown (by me in any case) amount, captured and killed- FOOLHARDY.

 

[EGarrett]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Should we mourn people like Nick Berg?

Well, here we get into definitions of 'hero' and 'foolhardy', don't we? Most of the time the media refers to one as a hero when they survive the undertaking ('the man, 24, father of two, from the Western Suburbs of Sydney, was hailed as a hero when ran into the blazing house to rescue the 64 year old man who is now in a serious condition'); whereas you become foolhardy if you don't

The media may refer to it that way, I don't. If you run into a burning building after a 64 year old man you had a VERY strong reason for going into that building. Directly saving another person's life.

Taking a risk with your life for something completely unnecessary is just a complete failure to realize the danger you're actions are putting you in...that's foolhardy.

Nick Berg wasn't rescuing someone from a burning building...he was in Iraq trying to install cellphone antennas or something like that. He had no real good reason to be there taking that risk...as he could have started a business at home and not had to worry about extremists sawing his head off.

Attempting to rescue someone from a burning building when no one else can I would consider heroic. Going to a war torn country riddled with anti-American violence so you can try to make a buck or get a few people food I consider foolhardy.

 

[tamiO]

To me he is a hero for being so kind to so many during his short life and had a lot of fun doing it.

There are people in Africa that mourn his death.

If only he hadn't been so trusting (positive) or foolhardy (negative) he would have still been alive and helping people. The only influence his life has now is to inspire others to do the same and perhaps be more careful.

Or you can laugh at him for how stupid and greedy he was.

 

[Beancounter]

Was he foolhardy? Possibly. Should we mourn his death? Definitely.

Nick Berg was not a psycho killer that the world is better of without, but a person who made a positive contribution (my assumption based on the comments above) for whatever reasons he may have had.

Not all questions require further intellectualizing once the basic "facts" are known (and I am not trying to get sentimental here!).

 

[Skeptic]

Re: Re: lets stop the hero worship

Here you’re saying his primary motivation was money, and helping people may have been a secondary motivation. What’s your source for that? Did you read that somewhere? Or are you just projecting onto him what your motivations would have been?

The definition of a cynic is someone who thinks everybody else is as much of an egoistic, self-centered prigs as they themselves are.

This is what they call blaming the victim. Everybody that ever suffers any misfortune could be said to have avoided that misfortune if they had made different choices.

Indeed.

 

[EGarrett]

If only he hadn't been so trusting (positive) or foolhardy (negative) he would have still been alive and helping people. The only influence his life has now is to inspire others to do the same and perhaps be more careful.

Or you can laugh at him for how stupid and greedy he was.

I have a feeling not too many people are going to head to Iraq like he did. I also don't laugh at him...I just solemnly shake my head.

Posted by Skeptic
This is what they call blaming the victim. Everybody that ever suffers any misfortune could be said to have avoided that misfortune if they had made different choices.

Indeed.

There's a difference between making different choices when you aren't clearly in danger...and knowingly thrusting yourself into harm's way and ignoring warnings.

I'll ask you the same question I asked above...where do you draw the line between misfortune and foolishness?

 

[Skeptic]

There's a difference between making different choices when you aren't clearly in danger...and knowingly thrusting yourself into harm's way and ignoring warnings.

Yes, there IS a difference. The first is called "dumb luck"; the second, "courage" or "idealism" or "selflessness"--or, as cowards call it, "foolishness".

 

[Samus]

I asked a buddy of mine in the AO about Nick Berg. He said the consensus amongst his troops is that the guy was an idiot for walking around Iraq with no personal protection. However, he certainly didn't deserve to die, in such a horrific manner, and then have the video become fodder for p2p networks.

I'd say that is a pretty rational assessment. Certainly, it was very nice of him to go over there with the hope of helping the Iraqi people (who are the big losers in this whole conflict). However, it was naive at best to think the country safe and stable enough to roam around there without two sidearms and an up-armored Humvee.

It's a shame he died, I feel for his family and friends, but his actions made him a target for abduction.

 

[tamiO]

I asked a buddy of mine in the AO about Nick Berg. He said the consensus amongst his troops is that the guy was an idiot for walking around Iraq with no personal protection. However, he certainly didn't deserve to die, in such a horrific manner, and then have the video become fodder for p2p networks.

I'd say that is a pretty rational assessment. Certainly, it was very nice of him to go over there with the hope of helping the Iraqi people (who are the big losers in this whole conflict). However, it was naive at best to think the country safe and stable enough to roam around there without two sidearms and an up-armored Humvee.

It's a shame he died, I feel for his family and friends, but his actions made him a target for abduction.

I don't think he felt comfortable with the US military or the FBI after the hassles they put him and his family through.

 

[varwoche]

Re: Re: Should we mourn people like Nick Berg?

It's pretty obvious (at least to me) that Berg was executed because he was trying to contact Al-Qaeda, and Al-Qaeda didn't wish to be contacted.

Please share.

 

[Samus]

tamiO: I don't think he felt comfortable with the US military or the FBI after the hassles they put him and his family through.

On the other hand, can you blame the U.S.? The guy had no credentials, nothing more than a noble spirit guiding him over there. He was in danger, and the U.S. government didn't want him to be. A corps of "free agents" roaming around the country walking in to traps like Berg did is not exactly what the U.S. wants. He should have joined the International Red Cross, he could have contributed and would have been under the umbrella of that organization and its protection.

That, and I'm sure he raised an eyebrow or two with the spooks.

 

[tamiO]

On the other hand, can you blame the U.S.? The guy had no credentials, nothing more than a noble spirit guiding him over there. He was in danger, and the U.S. government didn't want him to be. A corps of "free agents" roaming around the country walking in to traps like Berg did is not exactly what the U.S. wants. He should have joined the International Red Cross, he could have contributed and would have been under the umbrella of that organization and its protection.

That, and I'm sure he raised an eyebrow or two with the spooks.

Even before that, he had let some guy on the train use his email account. That man was a Mr. Mo-sow-ee of 9/11 fame. ( i spelled it phonetically, since my movie comes on in 4 minutes and that's not time to look up how to spell it; you know who I mean )

 

[Samus]

tamiO: ...since my movie comes on in 4 minutes...

Wow! You're in a movie?