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Shermer Follow-Up to ABC Report

Brown

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
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Michael Shermer Answers Viewer Questions on Psychics

It seems to me that many of the respondents (especially those who are ga-ga about John "Il Douche" Edward) are women. Here are a few teasers from the link.
Q: I think you stink. John Edward is my hero, idol and I believe him all the way. He doesn't care who believes him.
— Judy Case
A: He doesn't need to when acolytes such as yourself will believe him regardless of how clearly we can demonstrate that it is all a fake. That is the power of belief, and, as Ritter noted in the show, with a base of 60 million believers he doesn't need to care about skeptics.

...

Q: Why can't you let this go, What does it matter to you if he can realy talk/see the dead. As a person who has lost her parents and too many other family members to mention, HE GIVES US HOPE, AND SOME CLOSURE. I don't care realy if it is true.. ALL I care about is that he/they John Edward, James Van Praagh and Sylvia Browne all give us a hope that we will see our long lost loved ones again. Also how can them making people feel so good about such a huge lost in theier lives, be so wrong ??? Do you know of any ways to help the pain of a lost loved one???
— Pamela Nicholson
A: Yes, grief counselors. These are trained professionals who deal in loss, death and grief. They tell me that the reason the psychics are harmful is that pretending that one's lost loved one is not really gone keeps one in a state of denial, making it impossible to ever work through the grieving process.

...

Q: What makes you think he's a phoney? Could you come any where near as close to a name or a sickness as he does? I would bet not.
— Brett
A: I can do much better than John Edward, and I have! See my article "Psychic for a Day" at www.skeptic.com, which discusses my psychic abilities on a television show.
 
Q: Mr. Shermer and Mr. Ritter,
After you watched the piece on 20/20 do you really feel it followed the principles of good journalism — i.e. was balanced and fair? Personally, I think the readings (and commentary) were edited in a way so that they would support and illustrate Mr. Shermer's points. Edward had no opportunity to respond to any of them (except one question like, "Are you really self-deluded AND preying on grieving people?") The readings were all chopped up into little negative sound bites (again, illustrating the negative "spin" of Shermer and Ritter — i.e. "the swagger of a rock star" — how slanted a characterization is THAT?) And who evaluated the "40 out of 41" misses for your producer, using what criteria? Couldn't we have seen more of that reading and his comments of how nothing fit for him? (And it would only have been fair to contrast a dissatisfied sitter with a satisfied one, and perhaps get both people to talk about their different perception of the experience). It also would have been FAIRER and more BALANCED to have shown more of the readings themselves, and to have talked with some of the people who felt he got excellent information for them (and why, even if later you debunked it.) AT LEAST, you would have presented a balanced view!!!! But no. This wasn't investigative journalism. More like a (deceptively UNlabelled) op/ed piece. My question is: Do you both think it was actually a fair and balanced piece of reporting? I'll be extremely surprised if you both can honestly say, "Yes". — Julie

A: I can honestly answer Yes. We have become so accustomed to biased reporting in the media these days that it is difficult to recognize truly "fair and balanced" reporting when it is actually done correctly. The ABC News department is first-rate in this regard. Larry King, by contrast, is in the entertainment department, not the news department, of CNN, and the difference in the quality of the reportage shows.

Clancie, it's polite to address people with a PhD as "Dr." not "Mr." And good for you for getting your mail replied to. ;) :)
 
rofl, Unrepentant Sinner.

Good deductive work there! :D

Of course, now that I re-read it, it does have a familiar "rant" feeling to it, that I have shared at this board since. What can I say, US? It was late...I was...irked...ABC News had no "preview" button...just that little email box....and, worst of all, they totally ignored my original paragraphing!!!!!

I can't help admiring how deftly Shermer avoided responding to almost -all- of the points I raised. :p



P.S. It's okay to call someone with a Ph.D "Mr" unless they specify otherwise. (Though, now that you mention it, I think he -did- use it at the Cal Tech presentation. C'est la vie...).
 
Hi! I'm an emotionall, illogical deluded moron who is willing to accept whatever makes me feel good. Michael Shermer sux because he made fun of my favorite person AND he's encouraging people to think in a rational manner. I am offended. May god bless you (and other hypocritcal messages after denouncing Shermer as a whore and fake)

-signed,
comprised letters of howling outraged people. :p
 
alfaniner: Million to one odds happen 280 times a day in America.
Or you could say, Million to one odds happen 322 times a day in North America.

According to the CIA World Factbook, the July 2003 estimate is 290 in the United States, and 32 in Canada. If you also want to count Mexico, add another 105.
 
Clancie said:
Of course, now that I re-read it, it does have a familiar "rant" feeling to it, that I have shared at this board since. What can I say, US? It was late...I was...irked...ABC News had no "preview" button...just that little email box....and, worst of all, they totally ignored my original paragraphing!!!!!

Noooooo......not a "rant"......not at all........no...........

Clancie said:
I can't help admiring how deftly Shermer avoided responding to almost -all- of the points I raised. :p

Well, let's see just how many points you raised. Feel free to correct me.

After you watched the piece on 20/20 do you really feel it followed the principles of good journalism — i.e. was balanced and fair?
A question. Basically the same as you end with. Shermer answered that.

Personally, I think the readings (and commentary) were edited in a way so that they would support and illustrate Mr. Shermer's points.
An opinion. Doesn't need reply.

Edward had no opportunity to respond to any of them (except one question like, "Are you really self-deluded AND preying on grieving people?")
But you had no problems when Zahn asked basically the same question. Of course, you were then defending why it was not a slanted show....

Still, an opinion. Doesn't need reply.

The readings were all chopped up into little negative sound bites (again, illustrating the negative "spin" of Shermer and Ritter — i.e. "the swagger of a rock star" — how slanted a characterization is THAT?)
Yet, we see pro-paranormal programs with the token skeptic getting perhaps one or two statements in all. But no complaints from you there.

Still, an opinion. Doesn't need reply. It's hardly up to Shermer to defend how the producer puts the program together.

And who evaluated the "40 out of 41" misses for your producer, using what criteria?
A question. Do you have any reason to believe that it was not the producer, and that he used exactly the same criteria that all other sitters do: See if they can make it fit?

Couldn't we have seen more of that reading and his comments of how nothing fit for him?
A question. Hardly one that Shermer can answer, since he is not the producer.

(And it would only have been fair to contrast a dissatisfied sitter with a satisfied one, and perhaps get both people to talk about their different perception of the experience).
An opinion. This, incidentally, is complete hypocrisy from you: You don't demand that we see the same on CO.

It also would have been FAIRER and more BALANCED to have shown more of the readings themselves, and to have talked with some of the people who felt he got excellent information for them (and why, even if later you debunked it.)
An opinion. Did this happen at all? Were there people who felt JE got excellent information for them?


AT LEAST, you would have presented a balanced view!!!! But no. This wasn't investigative journalism. More like a (deceptively UNlabelled) op/ed piece.
An opinion. You should refrain from using too many of those exclamation marks, they are the hallmark of a person ranting. You should also look at how investigative journalism is done: That is not the same as a "balanced" piece.

In demanding "balance" in such a shrill tone, you came off as a raving creationist. Not a good idea with Shermer...

My question is: Do you both think it was actually a fair and balanced piece of reporting? I'll be extremely surprised if you both can honestly say, "Yes".
A question. Which Shermer answered.

You complain that Shermer did not answer your barrage of "points". Those "points" were mostly opinions, and very biased themselves. Most were unanswerable by Shermer, since you should have directed them at the producer. The one question that Shermer was able to answer, he did. So what are you complaining about?

Strange how you complain when I ask you the same number of questions, or even when I list your unanswered questions, collated over many threads....

Way to go, Clancie.
 
Since Montague Keen has been much mentioned here, I thought I'd post his question/Shermer's answer from the 20/20 link....

From Keen

Q: If all Edward's apparent hits can be explained by guesswork, body language, prior knowledge, etc, how does Shermer explain highly specific hits when the medium has no visual, auditory or other sensory means of communication, e.g. when sitters are proxy or when readings are double-blind, as in some of the experiments conducted with Edward and others by Professor Gary Schwartz of Arizona University?

Is Shermer not aware that such tests have been conducted since the 1880s, and that there is a vast accumulation of written evidence inconsistent with his explanation?
— Montague Keen
Shermer's reply:
A: Indeed, I wrote a column about this very subject in Scientific American ("Psychic Drift") in which I bemoaned the fact that serious psychic researchers have now had well over a century to put ESP to the test, and out of tens of thousands of experiments run there are only a couple significant ones, and even these fall apart under close scrutiny.

By now it should be obvious if there were really something to psychic power. There isn't, and it isn't likely that there will ever be with that failure rate.
Note: He didn't answer Keen's question at all.
 
Clancie said:
Note: He didn't answer Keen's question at all.

What?!

Clanice, the answer is right there in the post you composed!

What on Earth are you talking about?
 
psychic researchers have now had well over a century to put ESP to the test, and out of tens of thousands of experiments run there are only a couple significant ones, and even these fall apart under close scrutiny.

Seems to me that exactly answers the question.
 
alfaniner said:
My new signature:

Million to one odds happen 280 times a day in America.

Or if you consider that the *thing* which is a million to one could happen at any second in a nominal 16hr waking day....

Million to one odds happen 16,704,000 times a day, so billion to one odds happen 16,704 times a day and even trillion to one odds happen 16 times a day.

It's amazing we don't have more of this kind of thing really
;)
 
TLN said:
What?!

Clanice, the answer is right there in the post you composed!

What on Earth are you talking about?

It's just the new strategy of Clancie's: Tu quoque. She has already used it earlier in this thread. She now claims that skeptics dodge the questions, never "really" answering them. This "really" is her "out": She can simply claim that a question was not answered satisfactorily (to her), therefore never answered at all (to anybody).

Ironic in extremis, I know. Maybe she's studied Lucianarchy, she tries to pull the same trick. Also in vain, I might add.

Of course, when Clancie's email to Shermer was properly analysed (see above), it turned out that Shermer answered the questions he could.

So, there you go...
 
If I may be forgiven for sounding sexist for a moment, is Edward's audience composed mostly of women?

I've always wondered if women in general are more likely to believe in the fantastic. I admit up front that this is most likely a sexist conceit on my part, but I still suspect it may be true. I've never been able to find any statistics on the topic.
 
Clancie said:

Note: He didn't answer Keen's question at all.
Keen = "Is Shermer not aware that such tests have been conducted since the 1880s, and that there is a vast accumulation of written evidence inconsistent with his explanation?"

Clancie, Shermer's answer indicates that he is less than impressed w/ the "vast accumulation of written evidence" in support of ESP.

Why can't credophiles understand that the evidence for ESP needs to be airtight and replicable before we all start embracing ESP as real?

You, Luci, Steve and Keen STILL don't get it. What's up with that??
:nope:

Barkhorn.
 
Barkhorn1x said:


Clancie, Shermer's answer indicates that he is less than impressed w/ the "vast accumulation of written evidence" in support of ESP.

Why can't credophiles understand that the evidence for ESP needs to be airtight and replicable before we all start embracing ESP as real?

You, Luci, Steve and Keen STILL don't get it. What's up with that??
:nope:

Barkhorn.

Besides, given the implication of the question and how it is phrased...essentially that there have been many, many tests done proving PSI powers exist...it should be pretty irrefutable.

In short, all of these test should have lead to a general scientific consenses that PSI exists...and there is anything but, with most credible scientist dismissing PSI (based on tests and testing methods) outright.

The point is that years of testing, many tests, etc. seem only to have added to the confusion -- and this false sense of what science is and how it operates voiced by believers in PSI -- rather than leading to irrefutable results. And, practitioners of the "art" have never subjected themselves to indipendent, peer reviewed, verifiable and reproducible studies...there is always a catch, we did it and it looks like there might be something there but we can't do it again kind of thing.

If it exists, it is reproducible, under a variety of circumstances and conditions, it can be demonstrated in controlled conditions, and the method of testing will be transparent for all to see...and the person who demonstrates it will win a Nobel Prize, and as a reult of the "expiriment" or test, any credible scientist will be able to do it and demonstrate it.

Until then, this alleged "mound" of evidence is hooey.
 

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